Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 19 Jan 2021 08:16

Hi ljadw,

You post, "left-wing organizations who advertise on the NYT do this to help the NYT to survive ."

Who? When?

Evidence and sourcing for this proposition, please.

Cheers,

Sid.

gebhk
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by gebhk » 19 Jan 2021 12:08

There is no difference between giving a member of Congress millions for his election campaign and giving a media millions to pay its bills .
In both cases the aim is the same : to have them support you .
In 2016 Big Pharma spent $ 39 billion on advertising
.
In short, yes, many if not most newspapers' chief source of income is advertising (though actually since the Corona thing, this is not apparently the case with your personal bête noire, the NYT) - as evidenced by the fact that many survive quite happily despite being handed out free. And yes, morally it is the same thing - money is being spent to reinforce or modify public opinion. However, there is a significant difference in relation to its import. Whether the congressman gets his money or no, there will be an election. The congressman does not need to make that happen. Furthermore, once the congressman is elected, he has powers that affect our lives that we cannot control and once elected he has the responsibility to represent the interests of his entire country, state and/or electoral college. So we may and probably should, view who he owes favours to with some interest. The newspaper, on the contrary, has to create a readership, it does not happen by itself. It has little or no power to affect our lives. No one will put you in prison if you do not read the NYT. Nor does it have the responsibility of being impartial - just the responsibility of reporting factual information correctly and separating opinion from fact.

However none of this undermines the fundamental premise - NO ONE would advertise in the NYT or support it financially or otherwise, if no one READ it. And if you subscribe to the theory that people gravitate to the media that is in alignment with their views (and I doubt anyone would seriously question that - unless it's porn, off course, which was bought in pre-www times, for the interesting and insightful articles of course, ahem), then that means according to you that a significant number of people (over 7 million subscribers to NYT worldwide give or take) are rampant Marxists and that is before we start counting those that read someone else's copy. Personally I find that unlikely.

And if the NYT is a staunch supporter of the mythical 'Big Pharma', an archetypally capitalist entity, in expectation of receipt of its advertising and other bounty, where are its Marxist credentials? You can't have it both ways.

I am confused.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 19 Jan 2021 12:46

Oh yes you can't have it both ways : many, even most US billionaires are cultural Marxists .
Other point : the influence of a journal does not depend on the number of its readers .
Think on the Times and The Sun .
That people gravitate to the media that is in alignment with their views, yes, but the media do not decide people's views.Four years ago,almost all US media supported Hillary,but Trump won .
Biden supporters prefer CNN, but they become not Biden supporters by following CNN .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 19 Jan 2021 14:50

Hi ljadw,

You post, "many, even most US billionaires are cultural Marxists ."

There are apparently 630 of them

Can we have a full list, please, showing their names and political affiliations as you see it?

Or failing that, a source or two that make the same claim?

And while I am at it, you still haven't addressed the following:

"You post, "left-wing organizations who advertise on the NYT do this to help the NYT to survive ."

Who? When?

Evidence and sourcing for this proposition, please.
"

Cheers,

Sid.

gebhk
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by gebhk » 19 Jan 2021 16:23

Oh yes you can't have it both ways : many, even most US billionaires are cultural Marxists .
With respect that's a bit like saying most habitual rapists are cultural 'clean livers'. Even if billionaires say they believe in it (and I await, with Sid, with baited breath, your evidence that the majority of Billionaires support Marxism in this fashion) that does not make them cultural Marxists - at most it makes them Hypocrites.
Other point : the influence of a journal does not depend on the number of its readers .
That is true - the total number of readers is a significant and, in most cases, the most significant measure of its influence. However its influence also depends on its perceived quality ie the reliability of its facts and the sagacity of its opinion - but that is only a way of saying that the journal reaches a different audience, one which values such matters. The basic premise remains the same - a journal has to reach an audience by saying what that audience wants to hear. I happily concede the point that the influence of the journal depends on the number and quality of its readers.
Think on the Times and The Sun .
Amusingly, it has been more than suggested that The Sun (or The Scum as it is affectionately known by some) was responsible for changing the outcome of an election. No one, so far as I know, has ever accused The Times of that. I get what you are saying - no one has ever used the term 'Sun reader' as a compliment to that person's intellectual prowess; however even Sun readers have the vote!
That people gravitate to the media that is in alignment with their views, yes, but the media do not decide people's views.Four years ago,almost all US media supported Hillary, but Trump won .
My point exactly. If the NYT is Marxist then its because its readers are Marxists, not the other way around. Though, actually more people voted for Hillary than Trump as I recall. It's the college vote that elevated Trump not the vote of the people. So job done by the Marxist media.. though why a the media should support either of them is beyond me if it is Marxist as you say.
Biden supporters prefer CNN, but they become not Biden supporters by following CNN .
Very true, albeit it is probably fair to say that their choice of media will tend to support and strengthen their faith. In much the same way, no Catholic priest, however committed to ecumenism, is going to encourage his flock to convert to Islam.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 19 Jan 2021 19:21

About billionaires who are cultural Marxists : take the example of Bernie Sanders,of whom everyone knows the political opinions .
And who are supporting Bernie Sanders ?
It is very easy to find this list : look at Open Secrets
Donors for Bernie Sanders in 2020 .
Amazon : $ 780,045
Microsoft : $ 430,204
Apple : $ 387,394
Walmart : $ 271,322
Facebook : $ 239,296
Walt Disney : $ 216,126
IBM : $ 215,353
What is the conclusion of this non exhaustive list ?
1 Bernie Sanders is a secret agent of capitalism
or
2 The donors of Bernie Sanders are cultural Marxists .
What is more likely ?
Think on Robert Maxwell ,a billionaire, who stole hundreds of millions of pounds of the pension funds of his companies ,and who had the personal telephone number of Breznjev .

gebhk
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by gebhk » 19 Jan 2021 20:01

With a net worth of just under 2 million, Bernie Sanders is clearly not a billionaire. So not sure what the relevance of him is to this question? But even if he was, I struggle to find any espousal of Marxist ideology in his career. Not being a believer that the most unlikely explanation must be true, I would suggest the most likely explanation for his financial backing is that a large number of patently capitalist organisations believe either in some of his causes or believe they will benefit from his patronage. What any of that has to do with Marxism is beyond me.

I would suggest a more useful question is whether you believe:
A) Bernie Sanders is a Democrat supported by various corporations for reasons of mutual benefit
B) Bernie Sanders is a Marxist mole supported by crypto-Marxists masquerading as great capitalist enterprises, working to bring down Capitalist society by, for example, improving cancer care.

As for the classical conspiracy-theory hoey about who had whose telephone numbers? Perrlease.

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 19 Jan 2021 21:03

I think people should ignnore ljadw's conspiracy theories and focus on the topic of this thread.

Hitler didn't see a distinction between 'Austrian' and 'German', he (and most of the other people who lived in Austria and the German Empire) saw Austrians as a type of Germans so it's obvious why he was pan-German and thought that Austria and the Austrians should be a part of Germany.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 19 Jan 2021 21:29

Hi ljadw,

As usual you are neither supporting what you wrote earlier about "many, even most US billionaires are cultural Marxists.", nor providing, as I asked, the name of a single one who is.

Why do you write such nonsense if you can't, or won't, back it up?

There are 630 US billionaires and you can't name a single one to support your case? Not one?

You have other problems too, like establishing that Bernie Sanders is a Communist, rather than a Democratic Socialist.

And then there is the reciprocal question - if he is taking money from capitalist companies, is he really even a Socialist?

So, try again:

"You post, "many, even most US billionaires are cultural Marxists ."

There are apparently 630 of them

Can we have a full list, please, showing their names and political affiliations as you see it?

Or failing that, a source or two that make the same claim?

And while I am at it, you still haven't addressed the following:

"You post, "left-wing organizations who advertise on the NYT do this to help the NYT to survive ."

Who? When?

Evidence and sourcing for this proposition, please.
"

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Was Robert Maxwell ever actually a billionaire? He died with a business valued at just under 2 billion but with debts of some 4 billion. He was certainly a billionaire debtor, but did his unencumbered personal assets ever total 1 billion?
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 19 Jan 2021 21:38, edited 1 time in total.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 19 Jan 2021 21:32

gebhk wrote:
19 Jan 2021 20:01
With a net worth of just under 2 million, Bernie Sanders is clearly not a billionaire. So not sure what the relevance of him is to this question? But even if he was, I struggle to find any espousal of Marxist ideology in his career. Not being a believer that the most unlikely explanation must be true, I would suggest the most likely explanation for his financial backing is that a large number of patently capitalist organisations believe either in some of his causes or believe they will benefit from his patronage. What any of that has to do with Marxism is beyond me.

I would suggest a more useful question is whether you believe:
A) Bernie Sanders is a Democrat supported by various corporations for reasons of mutual benefit
B) Bernie Sanders is a Marxist mole supported by crypto-Marxists masquerading as great capitalist enterprises, working to bring down Capitalist society by, for example, improving cancer care.

As for the classical conspiracy-theory hoey about who had whose telephone numbers? Perrlease.
Sanders was member of a communist party, during his honeymoon in the USSR (WHO was going on honeymoon in the USSR ?) he said that Soviet social security was better than that of the US and ... returned to the US. During his presidential campaign, one of his staffers said that if Bernie was elected, the supporters of Trump would disappear in concentration camps, and Bernie never disavowed him .
The FACT that Amazon,etc were supporting Sanders proves that these organisations are directed by cultural Marxists .None of these organisations supported Trump .

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 19 Jan 2021 21:46

Sid Guttridge wrote:
19 Jan 2021 21:29
Hi ljadw,

As usual you are neither supporting what you wrote earlier about "many, even most US billionaires are cultural Marxists.", nor providing, as I asked, the name of a single one who is.

Why do you write such nonsense if you can't, or won't, back it up?

There are 630 US billionaires and you can't name a single one to support your case? Not one?

You have other problems too, like establishing that Bernie Sanders is a Communist, rather than a Democratic Socialist.

And then there is the reciprocal question - if he is taking money from capitalist companies, is he really even a Socialist?

So, try again:

"You post, "many, even most US billionaires are cultural Marxists ."

There are apparently 630 of them

Can we have a full list, please, showing their names and political affiliations as you see it?

Or failing that, a source or two that make the same claim?

And while I am at it, you still haven't addressed the following:

"You post, "left-wing organizations who advertise on the NYT do this to help the NYT to survive ."

Who? When?

Evidence and sourcing for this proposition, please.
"

Cheers,

Sid.
I have given the proofs : the bosses of Amazon, Apple, Facebook,etc are billionaires who support a communist (= Sanders ) .The conclusion is
a Sanders is a secret capitalist agent
or
b These billionaires are cultural Marxists .
About Maxwell : a left-wing Labour MP, a billionaire and a thief : there are several pictures of him with Breznjev .
Why would Breznhjev be on a picture with a British billionaire ? And why would a British billionaire be on a picture with Breznhjev ?

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 19 Jan 2021 21:52

About Sanders :
The Daily Kos ( to the left of everything that is on the left in the US ) February 17 2016:
''For Sanders democracy means public ownership of the major means of industry . ''
Marx would approve .
CNN : March 23 2019 :
''In the 1970 's B.Sanders urged nationalization of most major industries .''
Marx would approve .
Last point : Democratic Socialism does not exist .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 19 Jan 2021 22:07

Hi ljadw,

I see that 10th and 11th on the list of donors to Bernie Sanders are those two well known Marxist organizations, the US Army and US Air Force! The US Department of Defence is in there as well! (I have no idea what the explanation for that is!)

Not only that, but Disney and a Facebook executive contributed to Donald Trump in 2016!

So far, the only billionaire you have mentioned is (1) British, (2) was quite probably never actually a billionaire and (3) has been dead for thirty years!

You really need to tighten up your research!

Try again:

As usual you are neither supporting what you wrote earlier about "many, even most US billionaires are cultural Marxists.", nor providing, as I asked, the name of a single one who is.

Why do you write such nonsense if you can't, or won't, back it up?

There are 630 US billionaires and you can't name a single one to support your case? Not one?

You have other problems too, like establishing that Bernie Sanders is a Communist, rather than a Democratic Socialist.

And then there is the reciprocal question - if he is taking money from capitalist companies, is he really even a Socialist?

So, try again:

"You post, "many, even most US billionaires are cultural Marxists ."

There are apparently 630 of them

Can we have a full list, please, showing their names and political affiliations as you see it?

Or failing that, a source or two that make the same claim?

And while I am at it, you still haven't addressed the following:

"You post, "left-wing organizations who advertise on the NYT do this to help the NYT to survive ."

Who? When?

Evidence and sourcing for this proposition, please."


Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
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Posts: 10157
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 19 Jan 2021 22:12

Hi ljadw,

"Democratic socialism is contrasted to Marxism–Leninism which those socialists perceive as being authoritarian or undemocratic in practice. Democratic socialists oppose the Stalinist political system and the Soviet-type economic system, rejecting the perceived authoritarian form of governance and the centralised administrative-command system that formed in the Soviet Union and other Marxist–Leninist states during the 20th century."

I am sorry if it doesn't suit your argument, but all over Western Europe there are Democratic Socialist parties. I can' see myself voting for any of them, but to pretend they don't exist is plain daft!

Here is a direct quote from Bernie Sanders: "Look, in those countries that you’re talking about, Venezuela, Cuba, and now Nicaragua unfortunately, you’re talking about authoritarian societies. You’re talking about the old Soviet Union. You’re talking about an authoritarian, Communist society.

When asked whether he supported such regimes. he responded, “Of course I don’t support those. I have, my entire life, been fighting authoritarianism, whether it is communism, whether it’s fascism, whatever it may be.

One of the problems of the Right in the USA is that they wouldn't know if they had been bitten on the bottom by a Liberal, Democratic Socialist or Communist, because they simply don't know the difference!

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 20 Jan 2021 13:22

The same Bernie Sanders defended the communist regimes in Venezuela, Cuba and Nicaragua and wanted to impose such a regime on the USA .
And, no one believes him when he said : Of course, I don't support those .
Some one who wants to nationalize the main industries wants to impose a communist regime .
About Democratic Socialist parties : that such parties declare themselves democratic is not a proof that they are democratic . The communists also claim that they are democratic .
Two years ago , the German president Steinmeier, a socialist , said that Marx was a great German thinker......and Juncker was going even farther .
No one demanded that Steinmeier and Juncker should be fired .
Why ?
Very simple : because cultural Marxism is dominating Europe .
And also a big part of the USA .
Some one who calls himself a Democratic Socialist is as a Nazi who said (in 1945 !) that he had Jewish friends ,or as someone who said that The SU was an authoritarian state (denying that it was a dictatorship ).
There is nothing democratic in socialism, neither in capitalism .

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