Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

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ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 22 Aug 2021 05:50

But still there was a lot of hostility between Bavarians and Prussians/non Bavarians in and after WW 2 : Franz Josef Strauss was despised outside Bavaria ,Helmut Schmidt in Bavaria .
When president Ebert died in 1926, the archbishop of Munich ( von Faulhaber ) forbade to ring the bells of the churches .
Goebbels also despised the Bavarians ,

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 22 Aug 2021 12:01

ljadw wrote:
22 Aug 2021 05:50
Goebbels also despised the Bavarians ,
Really?

What did Goebbels say about Bavarians?

If that were the case then Goebbels would have “despised” Hitler too because Hitler considered himself to be a Bavarian:
Und Sie mögen eines zur Kenntnis nehmen: Ich selbst bin meinem Herkommen nach, meiner Geburt und meiner Abstammung nach ein Bajuware. Zum erstenmal seit der Gründung des Reiches ist die Würde Bismarcks in die Hände eines Bayern gelegt worden.

And you may take note of one thing: I myself am a Bavarian according to my origins, my birth and my descent. For the first time since the founding of the empire, Bismarck's dignity has been placed in the hands of a Bavarian.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 22 Aug 2021 12:13

In his diary,Goebbels wrote about a corruption scandal in Bavaria,where a local party chief had filled his pockets,and the comment of Goebbels,who was a Rhinelander,but considered himself as a Prussian, was : '' Of course, they are not Prussians
'',meaning that Prussians were not corrupt ,but Bavarians surely .
This anti-Bavarian racism still exists in Germany .The anti-Prussian racism has also not disappeared in Bavaria .
About Hitler : he also considered himself as an Austrian and as a German . He was also a politician : in Bavaria,he claimed be a Bavarian, in Austria an Austrian .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 24 Aug 2021 07:41

ljadw wrote:
22 Aug 2021 12:13
In his diary,Goebbels wrote about a corruption scandal in Bavaria,where a local party chief had filled his pockets,and the comment of Goebbels,who was a Rhinelander,but considered himself as a Prussian, was : '' Of course, they are not Prussians
'',meaning that Prussians were not corrupt ,but Bavarians surely .
This anti-Bavarian racism still exists in Germany .The anti-Prussian racism has also not disappeared in Bavaria .
About Hitler : he also considered himself as an Austrian and as a German . He was also a politician : in Bavaria,he claimed be a Bavarian, in Austria an Austrian .
I didn’t think you would be able to produce any thing of any significance.

That’s just your interpretation and what you posted doesn’t prove that Goebbels “despised” Bavarians.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 24 Aug 2021 13:51

If a Prussian (Goebbels ) commented about a corruption scandal in Bavaria with the words : Of course,they are not Prussians , this means that for the Prussian (Goebbels ) Bavarians were inferior people .
Even today there is a lot of contempt for the Bavarians,outside Bavaria .
That is something everyone knows who has a basic knowledge of German history .
It is the same for Irish in the UK, for North Italians about the inhabitants of the Mezzogiorno or the Sicilians,etc,

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 22 Sep 2021 09:37

The reason why Hitler didn’t advocate Austrian nationalist ideas is very simple: he regarded the Austrians to be Germans. His book Mein Kampf is littered with references to advocating Austria reuniting with Germany, the German state should include all Germans, etc.
Today, I am pleased that Fate chose the city of Braunau on the Inn of Northern Austria as my birthplace. This little town is on the frontier of the two German states whose reunion, at least for those of us from the younger generation, will be the accomplishment of a lifetime. We must do everything we can to reunite these states.
Austria must return to the great German mother country. Not for economic reasons. No, the economics are unimportant. Even if it did not make economic sense, it must still take place because common blood belongs in one common realm.

The German people have no moral right to setup remote colonies when they cannot even unite their own children in a common state. The people will only earn the right to acquire foreign soil when the Reich has expanded to include every German. The plow will become the sword, and the wheat which becomes the bread of posterity will be watered by the tears of war.
This was important to me for another reason. For the first time, I was forced to ask myself if there was a difference between the Germans who fought these battles and the Germans around me, and if they were different, how were they different? Why did Austria not fight in the war? Why did my father and all the others in our city not fight? Were we not like all the other Germans? Did we not all belong together? This problem stirred in my young brain for the first time. I learned that not every German was fortunate enough to belong to the Empire of Bismarck. I could not understand this at the time, so I began my studies.
Anyone who has not bothered to study the Hapsburg Monarchy (Austrian Royal Family) may find this strong nationalism puzzling. In Austrian schools, there is very little actual Austrian history worth mentioning. The fate of Austria is so completely intertwined in the Germanic life that it is unthinkable to separate history into German and Austrian. When Germany finally split into two spheres of authority, this very separation was German history.

Linkagain
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Linkagain » 01 Oct 2021 17:00

For one thing the Austrain Hungarain Empire was a multistate nation that was only held together by the Moral authority of Emperor Franz Joseph..when he died it really began to implode....
A Joke about differences of Ausrians and Germans
Germans: A situation is serious but not hopless.
Austrain: A Situation is hopless but not serious
Any wonder that the humorless killjoy AH prefered Germans to Austrains?

Or to put it another way on a Roman Catholic religious Channel is a program of fictional..meetings of Saints vs Sinners...
in one it was Josef Goebbels vs Father Maxamillion Klobe....personally I felt it would have been more effective if it had been A H vs father Klobe....It would have driven AH into mad fit...AH who worship National Socialism/Power/Germany vs a ethnic German who had given up worldy ambition/wealth/power to serve the _D in a religious vocation of that including promoting poverty and love for fellow man not brutal power/survial of the cruelist...in a country that in Hitler view was too primitve[Poland {Foremtly Austrain Poland ]....vs a "modern" Country {Germany]

SteveFBS
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by SteveFBS » 03 Oct 2021 04:59

I really wish there was a way to block certain threads.

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 05 Oct 2021 07:06

SteveFBS wrote:
03 Oct 2021 04:59
I really wish there was a way to block certain threads.
It’s a perfectly reasonable question to ask why an Austrian by birth promoted pan-German ideas.

Not everyone is aware of the history of Austria, the history of Germany, pan-Germanism, Greater Germany, the German Question, etc.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 05 Oct 2021 13:15

Not : ''an Austrian by birth '', but : ''countless Austrians by birth .''
Pan-Germanism in Austria existed long before Hitler was born .And it existed in all political parties, from the right and from the left .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 05 Oct 2021 19:02

ljadw wrote:
05 Oct 2021 13:15
Not : ''an Austrian by birth '', but : ''countless Austrians by birth .''
Pan-Germanism in Austria existed long before Hitler was born .And it existed in all political parties, from the right and from the left .
By the time Adolf Hitler was born, Germany had been unified as a nation-state for 18 years (Germany was unified in 1871 and Hitler was born in 1889). Austria was not a part of Germany when Hitler was born. Hitler was an Austrian citizen by birth and only became a German citizen in 1932 (after several failed attempts to gain German citizenship he became a German citizen because of a fellow Nazi), not even a year before he came to power.

Whether or not Hitler was a German depends on the definition of “German”. Even if we use the ethnicity definition, Hitler didn’t know who his paternal grandfather was, so should he still be counted amongst the German Austrians who were excluded from the German Empire? Were the Austrians who were of Slavic descent like Czech still Germans? Some historians have speculated that some of Hitler’s distant ancestry was Czech.

FWIW, the Nazis allowed Austrians of Czech ancestry to be German citizens after the Anschluss in 1938.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 06 Oct 2021 11:43

I know all this, and most of it is correct .
But, some ''corrections '' and ''additions '':
whether or not Hitler was a German does not depend on the definition of German , but on the decision of Hitler : a German was someone who considered himself as German, to have the German nationality was not needed .The ancestry also was not a determining factor .Some one with a Jewish forefather also could be German .
There were a lot of mixed marriages in Austria and Czechia,especially before WWI,less after 1918 .
Were there more of them in Czechia than in Austria ? No one knows .Austrians married to Czechs, to Hungarians, Jews, Italians ... and moved from Austria to the Sudeten and the opposite .
Slavic descent /German descent did not prevent from becoming German or Slavic .The father of Masaryk was a Slovak,his mother was mixed German/Czech,but if Masaryk had decided to become German, this would not have stopped him .
Last point : a lot of people, especially in the Anglo-Saxon world are still thinking that Hitler invented the problems in Austria, Czechia, Hungary, Poland ,while the truth is that they existed already BEFORE WWI (they were exacerbated by the war and Versailles, but existed already before Hitler's birth) : they existed already in 1848 and caused that year the dismissal of the Austrian Emperor .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 06 Oct 2021 12:31

ljadw wrote:
06 Oct 2021 11:43
I know all this, and most of it is correct .
But, some ''corrections '' and ''additions '':
whether or not Hitler was a German does not depend on the definition of German , but on the decision of Hitler : a German was someone who considered himself as German, to have the German nationality was not needed .The ancestry also was not a determining factor .Some one with a Jewish forefather also could be German .
I am English, if I now consider myself to be Chinese, am I Chinese? 8O :roll: :?

The Nazis certainly didn’t consider Germans who had Jewish ancestry to be Germans.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 06 Oct 2021 16:06

You chose your nationality,it is not society that decides your nationality .
And, yes, most people who had Jewish ancestry,were considered German by the Nazis, otherwise only few racial Germans would remain . To enter the SS ,you had to produce an Aryan certificate that was going back to 1800,only (1750 for SS officers ) .Thus,if it was proved that you had a non German/Jewish ancestor who died in 1749, there was no problem .
Given that most people had ancestors with mixed marriages... and given that most German Jews were children of mixed marriages ....
The SS knew that it was very difficult to produce a certificate that was going back farther than 1750 and that the farther you went back,the bigger the risk of a Jewish ancestor ..,that's why they decided that a Jewish ancestor living before 1750 was no problem .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 06 Oct 2021 20:02

ljadw wrote:
06 Oct 2021 16:06
You chose your nationality,it is not society that decides your nationality .
And, yes, most people who had Jewish ancestry,were considered German by the Nazis, otherwise only few racial Germans would remain . To enter the SS ,you had to produce an Aryan certificate that was going back to 1800,only (1750 for SS officers ) .Thus,if it was proved that you had a non German/Jewish ancestor who died in 1749, there was no problem .
Given that most people had ancestors with mixed marriages... and given that most German Jews were children of mixed marriages ....
The SS knew that it was very difficult to produce a certificate that was going back farther than 1750 and that the farther you went back,the bigger the risk of a Jewish ancestor ..,that's why they decided that a Jewish ancestor living before 1750 was no problem .
I don’t chose my nationality. A nationality is defined by one’s rights to a country which is generally cemented by citizenship or one’s belonging to an ethnic group. I can change my citizenship, I can’t change my ethnicity (background).

Hitler was born an Austrian citizen. His ethnicity is contested and uncertain.

That’s a fallacious argument. What the SS required was not what ordinary Germans had to fulfil in order to be a German citizen. Ordinary Germans had to prove that at least three out of four grandparents were not Jewish to be allowed to be a German citizen. The SS had stricter rules. The whole point in the Nuremberg Laws, the SS requirements and other laws and decrees was to get rid of any sort of Jewishness in Germany.

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