Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

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Hans1906
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Hans1906 » 20 Oct 2021 20:52

I consider your mutual quotation orgies as completely unproductive to this topic, and other topics, who should be able to follow all this.. ?

Just please come to your own point, your own statement, should there be one at all...

Danke!


Hans
„Im Leben gibt’s die Bösen und die Guten. Und die dazwischen, das sind die Bagaluten.“

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Oct 2021 00:13

Hi ljadw,

You were asked for a source for the following, "The reason why in 1956 almost half of the questioned Austrians claimed to be a part of the German Volk was that it was better in 1956 to live in West Germany than in Austria."

You haven't actually done so. For the third time of asking, can we please have a source for this proposition?

Cheers,

Sid.

gebhk
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by gebhk » 21 Oct 2021 06:36

Sorry, I can't help but agree with Hans.

What every other Austrian thought about the subject seems somewhat irrelevant. Surely the point is what a certain A Hitler thought on the subject, even if he was in a minority of one (though clearly he was not)? And that seems to have been answered on page one of this 42-page discussion.....

Bestest
K

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 21 Oct 2021 06:44

Sigh
Unemployment in Austria in 1955 :5,8 %,in Germany : 4 %
Number of tractors in Austria in 1957 compared to the number of farms : 1/6 , in Germany : 1/2
Austrian governments after the war :
1945-1947 : coalition of ÖVP,SPÖ and KPÖ,
1947-1969 : coalition of ÖVP and SPÖ
It is for every one evident that it is better living in a country where the communists are not in the government and where the same 2 parties do not rule during more than 20 years .
It is also evident that it is better not to live in a country where till the 1980s 20 % of the workforce was employed by the nationalized industry .
It is also evident that it is better to live in a country that was not partially occupied by the Soviets : FYI 50 % of the Austrians lived til 1955 under Soviet occupation .
Sources :
Unemployed : Austria : economic growth and government policy
Tractors ::Austria : projected level of supply,demand and trade of agricultural products
Workforce : Austria Inc forever ? On the stability of a coordinated corporate network in times of privatization and internationalization .
It is also a FACT,for which there are no proofs needed,that already in 1938 life was better for the average German than for the average Austrian ( reasons : Schacht's Wirtschaftswunder and Bismarck's Welfare state ) and that this was the main reason why countless non politically committed Austrians voted for the Anschluss .
The same situation existed in 1955 :the economic results of the liberal policy of the CDU in Germany (socialists were in opposition ) were better than the results of the etatist government in Austria,dominated by socialists, Soviets and the Soviet fifth column.
There was no Austrian Wirtschaftswunder .And the situation in the Soviet zone was similar to the situation in the German Soviet zone ( also called the DDR ) .

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 21 Oct 2021 06:54

And 10 % of the population of the Soviet Zone escaped to the West .
No wonder that people thought that it was better living in the BRD.
Source : The Long-lasting shadow of the Allied occupation of Austria on its spatial equilibrum .

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 21 Oct 2021 07:00

gebhk wrote:
21 Oct 2021 06:36
Sorry, I can't help but agree with Hans.

What every other Austrian thought about the subject seems somewhat irrelevant. Surely the point is what a certain A Hitler thought on the subject, even if he was in a minority of one (though clearly he was not)? And that seems to have been answered on page one of this 42-page discussion.....

Bestest
K
The discussion has evolved to the question : why did the Austrians followed Hitler and how many followed him .
And, as I expected, some people are parroting the discredited claims of the German nationalists who said that they knew better what happened in Austria than the Austrians themselves .

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Max
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Max » 21 Oct 2021 07:49

ljadw wrote:
21 Oct 2021 06:54
And 10 % of the population of the Soviet Zone escaped to the West .
No wonder that people thought that it was better living in the BRD.
Source : The Long-lasting shadow of the Allied occupation of Austria on its spatial equilibrum .
Equilibrium not equilibrum .

The source is actually
https://ftp.iza.org/dp10095.pdf
or any from this list
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=The+Long-last ... =hr&ia=web

Why can't you do this?
Greetings from the Wide Brown.

gebhk
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by gebhk » 21 Oct 2021 08:27

The discussion has evolved to the question : why did the Austrians followed Hitler and how many followed him .
We know the answer to the second question - 99.73% of some 92% of the electorate (the rest (about 8%) being locked up or otherwise prevented from voting). As for the first one, we will never know unles there was a reliable opinion poll held contemporaneously, which I've never heard of. Otherwise we may as well discuss how many devils can comfortably sit on the end of a needle with as much chance of a useful conclusion.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 21 Oct 2021 11:04

We will never know exactly the answer on the first question, because there were several reasons why people voted for the Anschluss, and most people had several reasons to vote for the Anschluss .
Reasons were ( not completely )
The Anschluss was already a fact
Life was better in Germany
Hostility to the Dolfuss regime
and last,but maybe also least : German nationalism .
I am convinced that the second reason was the most important as most people dislike politics and are not interested .
If life was worse in Germany, why would a German nationalist vote for the Anschluss ?

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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 21 Oct 2021 11:29

gebhk wrote:
21 Oct 2021 08:27
The discussion has evolved to the question : why did the Austrians followed Hitler and how many followed him .
We know the answer to the second question - 99.73% of some 92% of the electorate (the rest (about 8%) being locked up or otherwise prevented from voting). As for the first one, we will never know unles there was a reliable opinion poll held contemporaneously, which I've never heard of. Otherwise we may as well discuss how many devils can comfortably sit on the end of a needle with as much chance of a useful conclusion.
The answer on the second question is unproved and even questionable :the 8 % that was prevented from voting was not prevented from voting because the Nazis suspected them from voting against the Anschluss,but because they were following the Nazis what they were not ( for a lot of them ).
There was NO Jewish vote in Austria,most Jews did not consider themselves as Jews,and were convinced (wrongly ) that the Nazis also did not consider them as Jews .
For those who were locked up :there is no proof that if they were not locked up and IF they would vote,they would vote against the Anschluss : see the example of Renner .
A big part ( but we will never know how many ) of the 8 % would have voted for the Anschluss ,because the Anschluss was already a fait accompli .

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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 21 Oct 2021 16:01

ljadw wrote:
21 Oct 2021 07:00
gebhk wrote:
21 Oct 2021 06:36
Sorry, I can't help but agree with Hans.

What every other Austrian thought about the subject seems somewhat irrelevant. Surely the point is what a certain A Hitler thought on the subject, even if he was in a minority of one (though clearly he was not)? And that seems to have been answered on page one of this 42-page discussion.....

Bestest
K
The discussion has evolved to the question : why did the Austrians followed Hitler and how many followed him .
And, as I expected, some people are parroting the discredited claims of the German nationalists who said that they knew better what happened in Austria than the Austrians themselves .
Since when? I don’t recall anyone questioning why the Austrians followed Hitler. That’s a bit odd… he came to power in Germany in 1933 and the German citizens followed him, that was, of course, until 1938.

What “discredit claims”? The whole Anschluss campaign was based on the Nazi German nationalist slogan “Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer” (One People, One Empire, One Leader).

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 21 Oct 2021 16:03

ljadw wrote:
21 Oct 2021 11:04
We will never know exactly the answer on the first question, because there were several reasons why people voted for the Anschluss, and most people had several reasons to vote for the Anschluss .
Reasons were ( not completely )
The Anschluss was already a fact
Life was better in Germany
Hostility to the Dolfuss regime
and last,but maybe also least : German nationalism .
I am convinced that the second reason was the most important as most people dislike politics and are not interested .
If life was worse in Germany, why would a German nationalist vote for the Anschluss ?
ljadw wrote:
21 Oct 2021 11:29
gebhk wrote:
21 Oct 2021 08:27
The discussion has evolved to the question : why did the Austrians followed Hitler and how many followed him .
We know the answer to the second question - 99.73% of some 92% of the electorate (the rest (about 8%) being locked up or otherwise prevented from voting). As for the first one, we will never know unles there was a reliable opinion poll held contemporaneously, which I've never heard of. Otherwise we may as well discuss how many devils can comfortably sit on the end of a needle with as much chance of a useful conclusion.
The answer on the second question is unproved and even questionable :the 8 % that was prevented from voting was not prevented from voting because the Nazis suspected them from voting against the Anschluss,but because they were following the Nazis what they were not ( for a lot of them ).
There was NO Jewish vote in Austria,most Jews did not consider themselves as Jews,and were convinced (wrongly ) that the Nazis also did not consider them as Jews .
For those who were locked up :there is no proof that if they were not locked up and IF they would vote,they would vote against the Anschluss : see the example of Renner .
A big part ( but we will never know how many ) of the 8 % would have voted for the Anschluss ,because the Anschluss was already a fait accompli .
You sure as hell like to guess about so many things.

How come you are able to come to conclusions without any secondary sources to back up your claims? When you’re asked to provide a source you reply with another rant.

Your own claims and interpretations are not forms of evidence or proof.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 21 Oct 2021 19:31

The fact that there was no such thing as a Jewish vote in Austria in 1938, as there is also no such thing in Europe and the USA,is proved and caused by the fact that there was no Jewish community in Austria in 1938,as there is no Jewish community today in Austria, in the US and the rest of Europe .Most ''Jews '' were assimilated and did not consider themselves as Jewish :less than 200000 people declared, for obvious reasons,that they were religiously Jewish , but more than 100000 others were or Christian or agnostic .And, no one has any trust in the declarations of the 200000.
People did not (and DO not ) vote as Jews, as Catholics ( most Austrian Catholics did not vote for the ÖVP.
The parents of Bruno Kreisky were agnostic ''Jews '',Kreisky became a Marxist and strong enemy of Israel,later he collaborated with Jorg Haider .
Renner was at the same time a Marxist internationalist socialist ,a nationalistic socialist ,partisan of the Anschluss when his German colleagues ruled Germany , opponent of the Anschluss in 1933 and supporter of the Anschluss in 1938,after the Anschluss had become reality . But he still remained an opponent of the Nazis .
If Renner supported the Anschluss, a lot of the Marxists who were sent to Dachau would also support the Anschluss .
Voting for Anschluss does not mean being Nazi or German nationalist and Austrian German nationalists could also ( and did ) vote against Anschluss .
A lot of Austrian ''Jews '' would have voted for Anschluss with the Weimar Republic and others would also have voted for Anschluss with the Third Reich .
Every one knows that people vote for Labour/Tories, etc for different reasons . Not every one who voted for Brexit supported Brexit or knew what Brexit was .The same for those who voted against Brexit .
I am convinced that most of those who were locked up/prevented from voting ,would have supported Anschluss ,with as main reason that the Anschluss was a reality BEFORE the referendum .
And the Nazis knew this also . The reason why they could not vote was because a lot of them would have been lynched at the polling stations with unpleasant publicity abroad as result .
The Wehrmacht entered Austria in March, the referendum was in April .And we know what happened during this period .

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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 21 Oct 2021 21:16

George L Gregory wrote:
21 Oct 2021 16:01
ljadw wrote:
21 Oct 2021 07:00
gebhk wrote:
21 Oct 2021 06:36
Sorry, I can't help but agree with Hans.

What every other Austrian thought about the subject seems somewhat irrelevant. Surely the point is what a certain A Hitler thought on the subject, even if he was in a minority of one (though clearly he was not)? And that seems to have been answered on page one of this 42-page discussion.....

Bestest
K
The discussion has evolved to the question : why did the Austrians followed Hitler and how many followed him .
And, as I expected, some people are parroting the discredited claims of the German nationalists who said that they knew better what happened in Austria than the Austrians themselves .
Since when? I don’t recall anyone questioning why the Austrians followed Hitler. That’s a bit odd… he came to power in Germany in 1933 and the German citizens followed him, that was, of course, until 1938.

What “discredit claims”? The whole Anschluss campaign was based on the Nazi German nationalist slogan “Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer” (One People, One Empire, One Leader).
NO : Ein Volk,ein Reich, ein Führer was not the main slogan of the Anschluss campaign : people did not vote for the Anschluss because of this slogan . Most people followed the old Do ut Des tactic : they would vote for those who would give them a better life .Proportionally there were in Germany 10 times less unemployed than in Austria, that's why most Austrians wanted to be a part of Germany : Erst das Fressen,dan die Moral .That's why the Nazis promised the Austrian unemployed a full job .
And this happened also in the US: the GOP lost in 1932 because electors hold them responsible for the millions of unemployed,the Democrats won in 1936 because electors hold them responsible for the improved economic situation ,etc ...
My grand mother asked me to vote in her place ( she was too old to vote ) for a liberal free mason minister because he had provided her a telephone connection, and she did not care to what party he belonged ;if he was a communist,she would have asked the same .She told me : he has done something for me, now I will do something for him .
People are not interested in slogans, in party programs, in political intrigues .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 21 Oct 2021 21:55

ljadw wrote:
21 Oct 2021 21:16
George L Gregory wrote:
21 Oct 2021 16:01
ljadw wrote:
21 Oct 2021 07:00
gebhk wrote:
21 Oct 2021 06:36
Sorry, I can't help but agree with Hans.

What every other Austrian thought about the subject seems somewhat irrelevant. Surely the point is what a certain A Hitler thought on the subject, even if he was in a minority of one (though clearly he was not)? And that seems to have been answered on page one of this 42-page discussion.....

Bestest
K
The discussion has evolved to the question : why did the Austrians followed Hitler and how many followed him .
And, as I expected, some people are parroting the discredited claims of the German nationalists who said that they knew better what happened in Austria than the Austrians themselves .
Since when? I don’t recall anyone questioning why the Austrians followed Hitler. That’s a bit odd… he came to power in Germany in 1933 and the German citizens followed him, that was, of course, until 1938.

What “discredit claims”? The whole Anschluss campaign was based on the Nazi German nationalist slogan “Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer” (One People, One Empire, One Leader).
NO : Ein Volk,ein Reich, ein Führer was not the main slogan of the Anschluss campaign : people did not vote for the Anschluss because of this slogan . Most people followed the old Do ut Des tactic : they would vote for those who would give them a better life .Proportionally there were in Germany 10 times less unemployed than in Austria, that's why most Austrians wanted to be a part of Germany : Erst das Fressen,dan die Moral .That's why the Nazis promised the Austrian unemployed a full job .
And this happened also in the US: the GOP lost in 1932 because electors hold them responsible for the millions of unemployed,the Democrats won in 1936 because electors hold them responsible for the improved economic situation ,etc ...
My grand mother asked me to vote in her place ( she was too old to vote ) for a liberal free mason minister because he had provided her a telephone connection, and she did not care to what party he belonged ;if he was a communist,she would have asked the same .She told me : he has done something for me, now I will do something for him .
People are not interested in slogans, in party programs, in political intrigues .
The Nazi propaganda campaign in 1938 for the Anschluss was heavily reliant on the idea that the Austrians belonged to Germany because they were of the same blood. Again, the historic basis was the idea of a Greater Germany.

Back to history 101:

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Anschluss 13 März 1938 Postcard

https://www.ea-militaria.com/anschlus-1 ... -1938.html

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