Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 21 Oct 2021 21:56

We’re still waiting for you to provide a source for your claim but of course we all know that’s never going to happen and we’ll just end up reading another one of your never ending rants.

Ecam
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Ecam » 22 Oct 2021 03:44

George L Gregory wrote:
21 Oct 2021 21:56
We’re still waiting for you to provide a source for your claim but of course we all know that’s never going to happen and we’ll just end up reading another one of your never ending rants.
I’m afraid, GLG, that all the threads you either start or participate in, turn into giant rants. You and your fellow “debaters” are discussing idiotic themes one after another.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 22 Oct 2021 06:22

But, there is no proof that this propaganda was the reason why people voted for the Anschluss and for the Nazis in the Reichstag election .The effect of propaganda on the results of elections is very much exaggerated .
Take Vienna : Red Vienna.A stronghold of communists and socialists :all those proletarians who had voted for the communists and socialists ,did not do this because of the socialist and communist propaganda,and they did not vote for the Nazis because of their propaganda of ein Reich,ein Volk,ein Führer.They did not care about Grossdeutschland.They knew that the situation was better in Germany ,thus they voted for the Anschluss .Besides, the Anschluss did not happen on 10 April ,but on 12 March : the referendum was only a formality .Other reason why they voted for the Anschluss was that the entry of the Germans had caused the collapse of law and order and had given them the occasion to start a pogrom against the Jews and to plunder them .
The slogan in Vienna was : the Jews must leave, but their cash must remain.If they did not vote for the Anschluss,the Jews would remain and they would be forced to give back what they had stolen .

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 22 Oct 2021 06:46

About all these claims about the strength of Pan Germanism in AH before 1914 , the fact remains that in the last elections in Cisleithania before the war (1911 ) the strength of the DVP ( German nationalism ) was 1,58 % .
In 1907 Schönerer got 3 seats in the Reichsrat that had 516 members .
That was the political strength of German nationalism before 1914 .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 22 Oct 2021 08:35

Ecam wrote:
22 Oct 2021 03:44
George L Gregory wrote:
21 Oct 2021 21:56
We’re still waiting for you to provide a source for your claim but of course we all know that’s never going to happen and we’ll just end up reading another one of your never ending rants.
I’m afraid, GLG, that all the threads you either start or participate in, turn into giant rants. You and your fellow “debaters” are discussing idiotic themes one after another.
That happens for two reasons:

1) I’m debating with a conspiracy theorist.

2) I’m debating with someone whose native language is not English.

George L Gregory
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Location: Britain

Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 22 Oct 2021 09:02

ljadw wrote:
22 Oct 2021 06:46
About all these claims about the strength of Pan Germanism in AH before 1914 , the fact remains that in the last elections in Cisleithania before the war (1911 ) the strength of the DVP ( German nationalism ) was 1,58 % .
In 1907 Schönerer got 3 seats in the Reichsrat that had 516 members .
That was the political strength of German nationalism before 1914 .
Yet you continue to ignore the social and cultural strength of pan-Germanism in Austria and Germany in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

Do you even read any books? It’s well known that Hitler was a German nationalist way before 1914, he was even taught it by his school teachers.
For some reason Adolf took his Germanism far more seriously than the others, perhaps as a rebellion against his father, who was a stout advocate of the Habsburg regime. Once Keplinger accompanied him part of the way home, up the steep Kapuzinerstrasse. At the top of the hill Hitler stopped before a small chapel. “You are not a Germane [old German]", he bluntly told Keplinger. "You have dark hair and dark eyes." His own eyes, he noted proudly, were blue and his hair (at that time, according to Keplinger) was light brown.
John Toland, Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography, pages 2-3.
The atmosphere at the Linz high school was politically turbulent. Together, “clericalists” and Hapsburg loyalists fought against libertines and German nationalists. Pupils eagerly collected and displayed their colors:
while the high school students loyal to the emperor collected black-and-yellow ribbons and badges, photographs of the imperial family, and coffee cups depicting Empress Elizabeth and Emperor Franz Josef, the German nationalists collected devotional objects such as Bismarck busts made of plaster, beer mugs with inscriptions of heroic maxims about Germany’s past, and, above all, ribbons, pencils, and pins with the “greater German” colors of 1848: black, red, and gold. In Mein Kampf Hitler states that he too took part in the struggle of nationalities in old Austria. Collections were taken for the Sildmark [i.e., Austria viewed as part of the Greater German Empire] and the school association; we emphasized our convictions by wearing cornflowers [the emblem of Austria’s Pan-Germans] and red, black, and gold colors; “Heil” was our greeting, and instead of the imperial anthem we sang “Deutschland uber Alles," despite warnings and punishments.

The German-national associations Deutscher Schulverein (German School Association) and Siidmark (South Mark) sold “defense treasury coupons” to finance the “protection against the Czechization” and the “preservation and spreading of Germandom.” The profits from these collections were used to finance German kindergartens and schools in mixed-language areas. The South Mark mainly supported German farmers in linguistic enclaves and also bought land for new settlements. These collections, which involved the entire population, were very popular and probably served as the model for the National Socialists’ “Winter Relief.”

Cornflowers, the “Heil” greeting, and the colors black, red, and gold belonged to the Pan-Germans, those extreme German nationalists under the leadership of Schonerer who fought for German Austria’s Anschluss (annexation)'to the German Reich. Thus in their German nationalism the high-school students were more radical than their teachers, who, as civil servants, had to remain loyal to the emperor.

Most teachers at the high school were German-national in outlook. They incited the youths’ enthusiasm “for fighting for German soil at the border to Bohemia”—and, according to a schoolmate, did so doubtless “with pedagogic intent: You have to study diligently lest we in Austria lose our leading role and so that you can prove yourselves in the national struggle!” Hitler reported something similar about his favorite teacher, Dr. Leopold Poetsch: He used our budding nationalistic fanaticism as a means of educating us, frequently appealing to our sense of national honor. By this alone he was able to discipline us little ruffians more easily than would have been possible by any other means.

Poetsch was Hitler’s teacher from first through third grade (1901—04) in geography, and in second and third grade in history. He also ran the school library, where Hitler checked out his books. As a special privilege, Hitler was allowed to bring his teacher maps, which put him in
particularly close contact with him. Aside from his service at the school, Poetsch was a sought-after official speaker. He spoke at German-national associations, but also on the occasion of the emperor’s anniversary in 1908. Thus he was, like Hitler’s father, simultaneously German-national
and a Hapsburg loyalist, which was in line with his chosen party: in 1905 he joined the Linz city council as a representative of the German People’s Party.

Poetsch gave popular slide lectures entitled “Images 6f German History.” In them he strongly emphasized the Germanic era and the time of the early German emperors—that is to say, before the Hapsburgs—and proceeded to pinpoint the Germans’ “national awakening” up until the
Franco-Prussian War: “Since the great days of the magnificent German victories of the years 1870-71 we have become increasingly conscious of our Germanic identity and now thumb more ardently through the books of German myths, legends, and history.”

In the Hapsburg monarchy, the “Sedan celebrations” in commemoration of Prussia’s victory over France* were officially prohibited. The students celebrated clandestinely, invariably ending with the “Wacht am Rhein (Guard on the Rhine), the Prussian-German battle song against the “archenemy” France and the German nationalists’ anthem. In his speech after the Anschluss in March 1938 Hitler mentioned another song of his youth: When these soldiers marched in, I again heard a song of my youth. Once upon a time 1 sang it so often with a heart full of belief, that proud battle song: “Das Volk steht auf, der Sturm bricht los” (The people are rising up, the storm is breaking loose). And it was indeed the uprising of a people and the breaking loose of a storm.

The students’ actions against “black-yellow” teacher of religion Schwarz also clearly had a pan-German twist. Later Hitler would relate with unabashed pride how during religious instruction he had spread pencils before him with the greater German colors black, red, and gold. The teacher said, “You will immediately get rid of these pencils with those disgusting colors!” “Huh!” said the whole class. “Those are the national ideals!” “You needn’t have any national ideals in your hearts but only one ideal, and that is our fatherland and our house of Hapsburg. He who isn’t for the house of Hapsburg isn’t for the Church, and he who isn’t for the Church, is not for God. Sit down, Hitler!" According to Hitler, there had been a generally revolutionary atmosphere at school, an assessment other former schoolmates confirmed.

Another example: When Linz’s students were supposed to cheer EmPerot Franz Josef during his annual ride to his summer vacation in Ischl, their teacher found it necessary to advise them: “You have to yell ‘Hoch!’ I don’t want anyone to yell ‘Heil!’ “Heil” was the greeting of the German nationalists, “Hoch” (up) the shout for the house of Hapsburg.

Later Hitler liked to emphasize that on account of their experiences, *On September 1, 1870, Prussia defeated the French army, taking Napoleon III prisoner. Three days later the Third Republic was proclaimed in France. Austria remained neutral throughout the German-Franco War, which resulted in France losing its hegemony in Europe to the newly formed “Second German Reich” governed by Emperor William I and Chancellor Bismarck.

in the multinational empire, the German-Austrians had developed a much more alert and progressive form of nationalism than had the “Reich Germans,” even early on, when they still attended school: In this way the child received political training in a period when as a rule the subject of a so-called national state knew little more of his nationality than its language. At the age of fifteen, Hitler reported, he had already realized the distinction between dynastic “patriotism” and folkish “nationalism.” At any rate, even at that early age he clearly joined the camp of the radical “folkish nationalists,” rejecting the multinational state as did the Schonererians. On this important issue he thus distinguished himself from his father and his favorite teacher, Poetsch. It is understandable, then, that Poetsch was annoyed when he, the Austrian patriot, discovered that in Mein Kampf he received high praise as a teacher but at the same time was denounced as an enemy of Austria:

For who could have studied German history under such a teacher without becoming an enemy of the state which, through its ruling house, exerted so disastrous an influence on the destinies of the nation? And who could retain a loyalty to a dynasty that . . . betrayed the needs of the German people again and again for shameless private advantage?
Brigitte Hamann, Hitler’s Vienna.
Last edited by George L Gregory on 22 Oct 2021 14:23, edited 1 time in total.

gebhk
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by gebhk » 22 Oct 2021 10:21

Hi GLG

I would suggest that the main reason is that after the initial perfectly reasonable question is very convincingly answered - as it was in this case on the very first page, instead of ending it there, the conversation moves off into virtually unconnected topics where the answers are unknown and, short of the invention of a time machine, unknowable. The frequent application of solepsistic reasoning to these debates, further reduces their value.

To reiterate - we know why AH did not advocate Austrian nationalist ideas. From the horse's mouth, so to speak. Page 1.

We know how many Austrians 'followed' Hitler. Over 90%. It matters not a hoot whether they did this because they did it willingly or under duress; for reasons of belief or expediency; because they thought they had a choice or resigned themselves to a fait accompli. Follow him they did. About 8% of the electorate were not given the opportunity to 'follow' or otherwise. However, even if they ALL voted 'nein', it would not have lowered the result below 90%.

As for the reasons they voted as they did (which no doubt ranged from a fervent belief in anschluss via considered self-unterest to 'that herr Hitler has a very sexy moustache', as such things always do), we will never know because no one asked an adequate sample for an independent opinion. So debating this is simply a classic 'beating of the froth' because there is zero useful evidence to go on and we are left with 'what I imagine is better than what you imagine'.

Bestest
K
Last edited by gebhk on 22 Oct 2021 20:11, edited 1 time in total.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 22 Oct 2021 12:34

George L Gregory wrote:
22 Oct 2021 09:02
ljadw wrote:
22 Oct 2021 06:46
About all these claims about the strength of Pan Germanism in AH before 1914 , the fact remains that in the last elections in Cisleithania before the war (1911 ) the strength of the DVP ( German nationalism ) was 1,58 % .
In 1907 Schönerer got 3 seats in the Reichsrat that had 516 members .
That was the political strength of German nationalism before 1914 .
Yet you continue to ignore the social and cultural strength of pan-Germanism in Austria and Germany in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

Do you even read any books? It’s well known that Hitler was a German nationalist way before 1914, he was even taught it by his school teachers.
For some reason Adolf took his Germanism far more seriously than the others, perhaps as a rebellion against his father, who was a stout advocate of the Habsburg regime. Once Keplinger accompanied him part of the way home, up the steep Kapuzinerstrasse. At the top of the hill Hitler stopped before a small chapel. “You are not a Germane [old German]", he bluntly told Keplinger. "You have dark hair and dark eyes." His own eyes, he noted proudly, were blue and his hair (at that time, according to Keplinger) was light brown.
John Toland, Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography, pages 2-3.
The atmosphere at the Linz high school was politically turbulent. Together, “clericalists” and Hapsburg loyalists fought against libertines and German nationalists. Pupils eagerly collected and displayed their colors:
while the high school students loyal to the emperor collected black-and-yellow ribbons and badges, photographs of the imperial family, and coffee cups depicting Empress Elizabeth and Emperor Franz Josef, the German nationalists collected devotional objects such as Bismarck busts made of plaster, beer mugs with inscriptions of heroic maxims about Germany’s past, and, above all, ribbons, pencils, and pins with the “greater German” colors of 1848: black, red, and gold. In Mein Kampf Hitler states that he too took part in the struggle of nationalities in old Austria. Collections were taken for the Sildmark [i.e., Austria viewed as part of the Greater German Empire] and the school association; we emphasized our convictions by wearing cornflowers [the emblem of Austria’s Pan-Germans] and red, black, and gold colors; “Heil” was our greeting, and instead of the imperial anthem we sang “Deutschland uber Alles," despite warnings and punishments.

The German-national associations Deutscher Schulverein (German School Association) and Siidmark (South Mark) sold “defense treasury coupons” to finance the “protection against the Czechization” and the “preservation and spreading of Germandom.” The profits from these collections were used to finance German kindergartens and schools in mixed-language areas. The South Mark mainly supported German farmers in linguistic enclaves and also bought land for new settlements. These collections, which involved the entire population, were very popular and probably served as the model for the National Socialists’ “Winter Relief.”

Cornflowers, the “Heil” greeting, and the colors black, red, and gold belonged to the Pan-Germans, those extreme German nationalists under the leadership of Schonerer who fought for German Austria’s Anschluss (annexation)'to the German Reich. Thus in their German nationalism the high-school students were more radical than their teachers, who, as civil servants, had to remain loyal to the emperor.

Most teachers at the high school were German-national in outlook. They incited the youths’ enthusiasm “for fighting for German soil at the border to Bohemia”—and, according to a schoolmate, did so doubtless “with pedagogic intent: You have to study diligently lest we in Austria lose our leading role and so that you can prove yourselves in the national struggle!” Hitler reported something similar about his favorite teacher, Dr. Leopold Poetsch: He used our budding nationalistic fanaticism as a means of educating us, frequently appealing to our sense of national honor. By this alone he was able to discipline us little ruffians more easily than would have been possible by any other means.

Poetsch was Hitler’s teacher from first through third grade (1901—04) in geography, and in second and third grade in history. He also ran the school library, where Hitler checked out his books. As a special privilege, Hitler was allowed to bring his teacher maps, which put him in
particularly close contact with him. Aside from his service at the school, Poetsch was a sought-after official speaker. He spoke at German-national associations, but also on the occasion of the emperor’s anniversary in 1908. Thus he was, like Hitler’s father, simultaneously German-national
and a Hapsburg loyalist, which was in line with his chosen party: in 1905 he joined the Linz city council as a representative of the German People’s Party.

Poetsch gave popular slide lectures entitled “Images 6f German History.” In them he strongly emphasized the Germanic era and the time of the early German emperors—that is to say, before the Hapsburgs—and proceeded to pinpoint the Germans’ “national awakening” up until the
Franco-Prussian War: “Since the great days of the magnificent German victories of the years 1870-71 we have become increasingly conscious of our Germanic identity and now thumb more ardently through the books of German myths, legends, and history.”

In the Hapsburg monarchy, the “Sedan celebrations” in commemoration of Prussia’s victory over France* were officially prohibited. The students celebrated clandestinely, invariably ending with the “Wacht am Rhein (Guard on the Rhine), the Prussian-German battle song against the “archenemy” France and the German nationalists’ anthem. In his speech after the Anschluss in March 1938 Hitler mentioned another song of his youth: When these soldiers marched in, I again heard a song of my youth. Once upon a time 1 sang it so often with a heart full of belief, that proud battle song: “Das Volk steht auf, der Sturm bricht los” (The people are rising up, the storm is breaking loose). And it was indeed the uprising of a people and the breaking loose of a storm.

The students’ actions against “black-yellow” teacher of religion Schwarz also clearly had a pan-German twist. Later Hitler would relate with unabashed pride how during religious instruction he had spread pencils before him with the greater German colors black, red, and gold. The teacher said, “You will immediately get rid of these pencils with those disgusting colors!” “Huh!” said the whole class. “Those are the national ideals!” “You needn’t have any national ideals in your hearts but only one ideal, and that is our fatherland and our house of Hapsburg. He who isn’t for the house of Hapsburg isn’t for the Church, and he who isn’t for the Church, is not for God. Sit down, Hitler!" According to Hitler, there had been a generally revolutionary atmosphere at school, an assessment other former schoolmates confirmed.

Another example: When Linz’s students were supposed to cheer EmPerot Franz Josef during his annual ride to his summer vacation in Ischl, their teacher found it necessary to advise them: “You have to yell ‘Hoch!’ I don’t want anyone to yell ‘Heil!’ “Heil” was the greeting of the German nationalists, “Hoch” (up) the shout for the house of Hapsburg.

Later Hitler liked to emphasize that on account of their experiences, *On September 1, 1870, Prussia defeated the French army, taking Napoleon III prisoner. Three days later the Third Republic was proclaimed in France. Austria remained neutral throughout the German-Franco War, which resulted in France losing its hegemony in Europe to the newly formed “Second German Reich” governed by Emperor William I and Chancellor Bismarck.

in the multinational empire, the German-Austrians had developed a much more alert and progressive form of nationalism than had the “Reich Germans,” even early on, when they still attended school: In this way the
child received political training in a period when as a rule the subject of a so-called national state knew little more of his nationality than its language. At the age of fifteen, Hitler reported, he had already realized the distinction between dynastic “patriotism” and folkish “nationalism.” At any rate, even at that early age he clearly joined the camp of the radical “folkish nationalists,” rejecting the multinational state as did the Schonererians. On this important issue he thus distinguished himself from his father and his favorite teacher, Poetsch. It is understandable, then, that Poetsch was annoyed when he, the Austrian patriot, discovered that in Mein Kampf he received high praise as a teacher but at the same time was denounced as an enemy of Austria:

For who could have studied German history under such a teacher without becoming an enemy of the state which, through its ruling house, exerted so disastrous an influence on the destinies of the nation? And who could retain a loyalty to a dynasty that . . . betrayed the needs of the German people again and again for shameless private advantage?
Brigitte Hamann, Hitler’s Vienna.
Ah : something new : social and cultural strength .
And : about the atmosphere at the Linz high school : atmospheres at high schools are always politically turbulent,but this does not indicate a level of social and cultural strength of German nationalism in Cisleithania .
The students of the Linz high school did not vote, had no experience what life was and I doubt that an Anglo-Saxon historian as Toland has the knowledge about how life was in Linz in 1900. There is a big difference between Wisconsin and
Upper Austria .Toland writes as an American .And his Rising Sun was strongly criticized.
To use Mein Kampf as a source is always very risky ,as the aim of Mein Kampf was to give a good picture of the author .
Social and cultural strength that can not be translated in political strength and that is not influencing the political leadership,has not much value .
I know very well that there were problems in Bohemia and Moravia between Czech and German speaking people,but the reality is that neither the Czech speaking,neither the German speaking ones wanted to leave the AH empire and that both groups fought during the war loyally for the Emperor .There were also problems in Transleithania where the Hungarians oppressed the other nationalities,and these problems were more serious than those in Cisleithania .
Adult people who had to work for a living had not the luxury to be excited about such things,that was reserved to students,who had nothing else to do .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 22 Oct 2021 14:21

@ljadw

It doesn’t matter what anyone posts, you seem to have an answer for every thing.

We’re still waiting for you to provide a source for one of your earlier claims. Take a hint, one of your rants isn’t a source.

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=231738&start=615#p2369689

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 22 Oct 2021 14:27

gebhk wrote:
22 Oct 2021 10:21
Hi GLG

I would suggest that the main reason is that after the initial perfectly reasonable question is very convincingly answered - as it was in this case on the very first page, instead of ending it there, the conversation moves off into virtually unconnected topics where the answers are unknown and, short of the invention of a time machine, unknowable. The frequent application of solepsistic reasoning to these dabates, further reduces their value.

To reiterate - we know why AH did not advocate Austrian nationalist ideas. From the horse's mouth, so to speak. Page 1.

We know how many Austrians 'followed' Hitler. Over 90%. It natters not a hoot whether they did this because they did it willingly or under duress; for reasons of belief or expediency; because they thought they had a choice or resigned themselves to a fait accompli. Follow him they did. About 8% of the electorate were not given the opportunity to 'follow' or otherwise. However, even if they ALL voted 'nein', it would not have lowered the result below 90%.

As for the reasons they voted as they did (which no doubt ranged from a fervent belief in anschluss via considered self-unterest to 'that herr Hitler has a very sexy moustache', as such things always do), we will never know because no one asked an adequate sample for an independent opinion. So debating this is simply a classic 'beating of the froth' because there is zero useful evidence to go on and we are left with 'what I imagine is better than what you imagine'.

Bestest
K
Hi gebhk,

The problem is that ljadw doesn’t seem to agree with what was posted on the first page. He seems to just make things up as he goes along and dismisses or ignores any information or source that he doesn’t like… but I do remember him spouting conspiracy theories and other nonsense on other threads so I know that he’s not exactly the typical poster on this forum. I mean, he can’t even provide a source when asked. Although my posts can be lengthy (especially when quoting lengthy passages), at least I can provide sources for my claims.

George L Gregory
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 22 Oct 2021 18:14

Historian Evan Burr Bukey sums up the whole thing very clearly:
Before the revolutions of 1848 the German-speaking inhabitants of the multinational Habsburg monarchy saw no contradiction in feeling both German and Austrian. During that tumultuous year students and liberal bourgeoisie enthusiastically supported the efforts of the Frankfurt Parliament to unify Germany into a nation-state. Thereafter, German nationalist feeling moderated only slighdy. This was pardy because of the near success of the Frankfurt Parliament, pardy because other Austro-Germans had been jolted into awareness of their own minority status by the unexpected aspirations of Italians, Czechs, and Hungarians. Suddenly, the German subjects of the emperor felt both isolated and threatened by the nationalistic aims of others. A subsequent influx of large numbers of Jewish immigrants to Vienna further irritated xenophobic sensibilities. Still, it was not until Otto von Bismarck expelled Austria from German affairs after the Austro-Prussian War of 1866 that Austro-Germans suffered a real crisis of identity. Thereafter, both public and private life would be suffused by what the Social Democratic leader Otto Bauer called “the conflict between our Austrian and German character.”
Evan Burr Bukey, Hitler's Austria: Popular Sentiment in the Nazi Era, 1938-1945, page 26.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 22 Oct 2021 19:59

George L Gregory wrote:
22 Oct 2021 14:27
gebhk wrote:
22 Oct 2021 10:21
Hi GLG

I would suggest that the main reason is that after the initial perfectly reasonable question is very convincingly answered - as it was in this case on the very first page, instead of ending it there, the conversation moves off into virtually unconnected topics where the answers are unknown and, short of the invention of a time machine, unknowable. The frequent application of solepsistic reasoning to these dabates, further reduces their value.

To reiterate - we know why AH did not advocate Austrian nationalist ideas. From the horse's mouth, so to speak. Page 1.

We know how many Austrians 'followed' Hitler. Over 90%. It natters not a hoot whether they did this because they did it willingly or under duress; for reasons of belief or expediency; because they thought they had a choice or resigned themselves to a fait accompli. Follow him they did. About 8% of the electorate were not given the opportunity to 'follow' or otherwise. However, even if they ALL voted 'nein', it would not have lowered the result below 90%.

As for the reasons they voted as they did (which no doubt ranged from a fervent belief in anschluss via considered self-unterest to 'that herr Hitler has a very sexy moustache', as such things always do), we will never know because no one asked an adequate sample for an independent opinion. So debating this is simply a classic 'beating of the froth' because there is zero useful evidence to go on and we are left with 'what I imagine is better than what you imagine'.

Bestest
K
Hi gebhk,

The problem is that ljadw doesn’t seem to agree with what was posted on the first page. He seems to just make things up as he goes along and dismisses or ignores any information or source that he doesn’t like… but I do remember him spouting conspiracy theories and other nonsense on other threads so I know that he’s not exactly the typical poster on this forum. I mean, he can’t even provide a source when asked. Although my posts can be lengthy (especially when quoting lengthy passages), at least I can provide sources for my claims.
Where did I say that I did not agree with the content of the first post ? All we had in the first post were questions, not affirmations .
Why should I disagree with questions ?
The answer on the questions is very simple
1 Before WWI Hitler had become a German nationalist by the influence of his teacher who abused his position ,while before 1914 and German AND Austrian nationalism were almost nonexistent in Cisleithania .Austria as we know it today did not exist .
2 After WWI Cisleithania disappeared and today's Austria was born ,were also born and at the same time : German nationalism and Austrian nationalism .After having served 4 years in the German army, Hitler remained a German nationalist and decided to remain in Germany where he could promote German nationalism better than in Austria .
Last point : before accusing people of spouting conspiracy theories, it would be advised not to use someone who spreads conspiracy theories as a source,i e John Toland who claimed, without any proof ,that FDR knew about the impending attack on Pearl Harbour,but decided to keep this secret .
And I know more than you about the ties between Bad Pharma, the media and the politicians so that I am not impressed by your claim that every one who does not believe you is spreading conspiracy theories .

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 22 Oct 2021 20:24

George L Gregory wrote:
22 Oct 2021 18:14
Historian Evan Burr Bukey sums up the whole thing very clearly:
Before the revolutions of 1848 the German-speaking inhabitants of the multinational Habsburg monarchy saw no contradiction in feeling both German and Austrian. During that tumultuous year students and liberal bourgeoisie enthusiastically supported the efforts of the Frankfurt Parliament to unify Germany into a nation-state. Thereafter, German nationalist feeling moderated only slighdy. This was pardy because of the near success of the Frankfurt Parliament, pardy because other Austro-Germans had been jolted into awareness of their own minority status by the unexpected aspirations of Italians, Czechs, and Hungarians. Suddenly, the German subjects of the emperor felt both isolated and threatened by the nationalistic aims of others. A subsequent influx of large numbers of Jewish immigrants to Vienna further irritated xenophobic sensibilities. Still, it was not until Otto von Bismarck expelled Austria from German affairs after the Austro-Prussian War of 1866 that Austro-Germans suffered a real crisis of identity. Thereafter, both public and private life would be suffused by what the Social Democratic leader Otto Bauer called “the conflict between our Austrian and German character.”
Evan Burr Bukey, Hitler's Austria: Popular Sentiment in the Nazi Era, 1938-1945, page 26.
Bukey fails to mention that the majority of the members of the Frankfurt Parliament were judges,bureaucrats and professors who represented only themselves and not,what is called wrongly the German nation and who were elected by a minority of those who should have the right to elect them .A big part of the population was still illiterate .
The number of deputies was :436
Professors 49
Judges 110
Bureaucrats 115
Workers and peasants were not invited . They were only good to pay the expenses of these lazy 436 men .
Source !! :Social background of the members of the Frankfurt Parliament .
Other point of critic to Bukey : Bauer belonged to the far left wing of the Social Democratic Party and was the principal architect of AustroMarxism and his,hypocritical, support for the Anschluss was motivated by the fact that in Germany the Marxists also appeared to rule .

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 998
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 22 Oct 2021 20:55

ljadw wrote:
22 Oct 2021 19:59
Where did I say that I did not agree with the content of the first post ? All we had in the first post were questions, not affirmations .
Why should I disagree with questions ?
The answer on the questions is very simple
1 Before WWI Hitler had become a German nationalist by the influence of his teacher who abused his position ,while before 1914 and German AND Austrian nationalism were almost nonexistent in Cisleithania .Austria as we know it today did not exist .
2 After WWI Cisleithania disappeared and today's Austria was born ,were also born and at the same time : German nationalism and Austrian nationalism .After having served 4 years in the German army, Hitler remained a German nationalist and decided to remain in Germany where he could promote German nationalism better than in Austria .
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=231738#p2107432

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=231738#p2107929

Do you disagree with what CroGer posted back in 2017?
Last point : before accusing people of spouting conspiracy theories, it would be advised not to use someone who spreads conspiracy theories as a source,i e John Toland who claimed, without any proof ,that FDR knew about the impending attack on Pearl Harbour,but decided to keep this secret .
His views about Pearl Harbour are irrelevant to his biography of Adolf Hitler and the quote I quoted. I’ve also cited and referenced many other historians, yet you haven’t cited a single source, despite repeated calls to do so by other posters and me.
And I know more than you about the ties between Bad Pharma, the media and the politicians so that I am not impressed by your claim that every one who does not believe you is spreading conspiracy theories .
You think that you do, but your conspiracy theories and other eyewash were dismantled straightaway by users on here.

I know what a conspiracy theorist is and you’re a profound conspiracy theorist.
Last edited by George L Gregory on 22 Oct 2021 21:01, edited 1 time in total.

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 998
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by George L Gregory » 22 Oct 2021 21:01

ljadw wrote:
22 Oct 2021 20:24
Bukey fails to mention that the majority of the members of the Frankfurt Parliament were judges,bureaucrats and professors who represented only themselves and not,what is called wrongly the German nation and who were elected by a minority of those who should have the right to elect them .A big part of the population was still illiterate .
The number of deputies was :436
Professors 49
Judges 110
Bureaucrats 115
Workers and peasants were not invited . They were only good to pay the expenses of these lazy 436 men .
Source !! :Social background of the members of the Frankfurt Parliament .
Other point of critic to Bukey : Bauer belonged to the far left wing of the Social Democratic Party and was the principal architect of AustroMarxism and his,hypocritical, support for the Anschluss was motivated by the fact that in Germany the Marxists also appeared to rule .
I’m not sure why you keep rambling about the political parties that existed during Austria-Hungary. National identity and the success of political parties aren’t even necessarily related.

He was referring to the German identity of the German-Austrians prior to 1866 and how they suffered a crisis after they were expelled from Germany following the German war and subsequently did not join the German Empire.

What you constantly whine about Bauer’s political views is irrelevant to the fact that he specifically wrote about an Austrian and German character of the German-Austrians who lived in Austria during the late 1800s and early 1900s.

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=231738&start=615#p2369689

Any luck finding a secondary source? You’re taking your time, that is all.

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