Polish Ambassador Lipski offered Hitler a statue of him in Warsaw if he solved the Jewish Question

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SebastianHill
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Re: Polish Ambassador Lipski offered Hitler a statue of him in Warsaw if he solved the Jewish Question

#16

Post by SebastianHill » 12 May 2020, 02:55

wm wrote:
11 May 2020, 18:41
I've never said that, in my first post I wrote; the underlined sentence was added later in pencil by Lipski.
Can you provide a source where the sentence is followed by a “!”? You quoted and underlined the quote without any “!”. I’ve never read about a “!” being later added to the report or the idea that the sentence was later added. What is your source?

Also, you claim to have read the report, but you claimed that the Jewish Question being discussed at that time was about extermination when in fact as Lipski’s report shows, the discussion was about the emigration of the Jews.

You dismiss the sentence as “fake history”, despite the fact you have provided no evidence to support that claim.

It’s strange that you claim Lipski never discussed the Jewish Question with Hitler when in fact the report shows quite clearly that the emigration of the Jews was discussed.

The best you can come up with is:
I don't remember where I found the "added later in pencil by Lipski" but it doesn't matter, it's not true. Maybe someone thought Lipski exceeded his instructions.
You’re being dishonest and unwilling to accept that you have no evidence to support any of your claims about the statement which is why you have not provided a single source which claims the sentence was added after the report and that is why you are trying to make up excuses such as claiming it was about the extermination of the Jews when in fact the discussion was about the emigration of the Jews.

As Christopher Hitchens wrote, “What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.”

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Re: Polish Ambassador Lipski offered Hitler a statue of him in Warsaw if he solved the Jewish Question

#17

Post by Boby » 18 Jul 2020, 13:35

Is there any unpublished german record of this meeting? There is nothing in ADAP/DGFP, but there is of the meeting with Imredy and Kanya the same day at Obersalzberg.


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wm
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Re: Polish Ambassador Lipski offered Hitler a statue of him in Warsaw if he solved the Jewish Question

#18

Post by wm » 18 Jul 2020, 15:38

Who wrote the note from the meeting with the Hungarians?
I'm asking because the lazy and sloppy Ribbentrop wasn't very enthusiastic about writing such notes.
Such talks weren't stenographed but summarized by participants, exactly like Lipski did.

It was a very long meeting (ever two hours long) dedicated to the Sudeten Crisis and the Danzig question.
I bet my right hand such a trifle ("from other long deliberations of the Chancellor the following results were clear") isn't mentioned there.

It should be remembered the meeting happened at the height of the Sudeten Crisis - war or even world war was expected at any moment ("the Chancellor was very much absorbed by his approaching talk with Chamberlain").

That, during such a pivotal moment of history, when the very fate of Europe hung in the balance, Hitler concerned itself with Jewish emigration is beyond absurd.

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Re: Polish Ambassador Lipski offered Hitler a statue of him in Warsaw if he solved the Jewish Question

#19

Post by Boby » 18 Jul 2020, 15:56

The document is printed in DGFP, D/II, Nr. 554

It is a memorandum by Erich Kordt on a telephone conversation with Legationsrat Brücklmeier the following day, summarizing the meeting. It seems there is no official protocol by Schmidt, Ribbentrop, Hewel or any other (perhaps they were not present).

Why wouldn't touch Hitler the jewish question in this meeting? He was very interested in it.

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Re: Polish Ambassador Lipski offered Hitler a statue of him in Warsaw if he solved the Jewish Question

#20

Post by wm » 18 Jul 2020, 15:59

Because war or even world war was expected at any moment. And he wanted war.

He was interested in the emigration of German Jews, and for that, he found a solution in 1933 - in the Haavara Agreement.

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Re: Polish Ambassador Lipski offered Hitler a statue of him in Warsaw if he solved the Jewish Question

#21

Post by Boby » 18 Jul 2020, 16:18

wm wrote:
18 Jul 2020, 15:59
Because war or even world war was expected at any moment. And he wanted war.

He was interested in the emigration of German Jews, and for that, he found a solution in 1933 - in the Haavara Agreement.
Non sequitur.

And, if he wanted war in 1938, why there was no attack on czechoslovakia on 1 October?

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wm
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Re: Polish Ambassador Lipski offered Hitler a statue of him in Warsaw if he solved the Jewish Question

#22

Post by wm » 18 Jul 2020, 17:11

Why there was no attack had nothing to do with the subject at hand.

The point is the entire affair isn't based on facts.
It's pure speculation totally inconsistent with historical method and all the about 2000 pages of Polish diplomatic documents for 1938 and 1939.
The entire discussion here is fact-free. I have nothing to prove because nobody has been able to offer any evidence so far.

But if you wish:
As the deadline for Hitler’s ultimatum approached, Goebbels decided to head him off. The British and French ambassadors got to Hitler first, bringing fragrant fresh proposals. Ribbentrop was furious that war might be averted.

‘He nurtures a blind hatred of Britain,’ decided Goebbels. ‘Göring, Neurath, and I urge Hitler to accept. . . You can’t get into what may well turn into a world war over procedural issues.
Göring . . . totally shares my viewpoint and gives Ribbentrop a piece of his mind.’

Mein Führer,’ he blurted out over lunch in Hitler’s chancellery on the twenty-eighth, ‘if you think that the German public is thirsting for war, you are wrong. They watch its approach with a leaden sense of apathy.’

In that instant Hitler changed his mind. According to Ribbentrop’s Staatssekretär Ernst von Weizsäcker it was primarily Goebbels who persuaded Hitler to back off from war at this, the eleventh hour.
David Irving, Goebbels Mastermind of the Third Reich
sources:
- JG’s unpubl. diary, Sep 29 and especially Oct 2, 1939
- Klaus-Jürgen Müller, Das deutsche Heer und Hitler
- Private letter from Weizsäcker’s wife Marianne to his mother, Sep 30. This states that he gave JG the main credit, after Göring, over the last few days for averting war.
- In his diary Weizsäcker wrote on Oct 9, 1938 that JG made his remarks ‘in front of everybody and out loud to the Führer,’ which he reiterated in his Oct 1939 survey of historical events.

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Re: Polish Ambassador Lipski offered Hitler a statue of him in Warsaw if he solved the Jewish Question

#23

Post by Boby » 18 Jul 2020, 18:54

If he wanted war, why he changed his mind?

As for Lipski, you has offered no evidence that it was anything but what he wrote on 20 september.

If you think otherwise, post here a scan of the original document.

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Re: Polish Ambassador Lipski offered Hitler a statue of him in Warsaw if he solved the Jewish Question

#24

Post by wm » 18 Jul 2020, 22:20

It's a huge text - protected by copyright but you could buy the book and read it yourself.
And it's not how it works, the burden of proof is on the claimant if you say they discussed Jewish emigration you have to prove it.

But, Lipsky begins with: From other long deliberations of the Chancellor the following results were clear:
He uses the word wywodów = rant/rants, tirade/tirades but without the negative connotations. It's impossible to say it was a single, monolithic rant or many.
Hitler loved such "rants" there is a large book full of them.

Do you understand what it means? It means Hitler spoke and Lipski listened.

He summarized all the rants in six points, the last and presumably the least important was:
that he has in mind an idea for settling the Jewish problem by way of emigration to the colonies in accordance with an understanding with Poland, Hungary, and possibly also Rumania.

Thats all - nothing else happened, there was no discussion on this subject whatsoever. The meeting was about the Sudeten Crisis and the Danzig question and nothing else.
It's all a conspiracy theory peddled by Soviet propaganda then, and today embraced by the Putinists (and ignoramuses).

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Re: Polish Ambassador Lipski offered Hitler a statue of him in Warsaw if he solved the Jewish Question

#25

Post by Boby » 18 Jul 2020, 23:14

"(at which point I told him that if he finds such a solution we will erect him a beautiful monument in Warsaw)"

Did Lipski said this to Hitler yes or no? The memorandum proves he did. You have to prove he didn't!

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Re: Polish Ambassador Lipski offered Hitler a statue of him in Warsaw if he solved the Jewish Question

#26

Post by wm » 19 Jul 2020, 11:05

Of course he said that it was an (inside) joke he used to stop Hitler's tirade and get to business.

The meaning wasn't "yo Hitler your great" but "stop talking nonsense."

But as people well versed in Polish history are as rare as hen's teeth (mostly because of the language barrier), conspiracy theorists can spin their theories easily.

And anyway it should be noted he didn't speak to a monster but to a (still admired by many) German leader, who hadn't committed any war crimes yet and at that time in comparison with Stalin (but others too) was positively an angel in human form.

Another fact (showing ignorance of conspiracy theorists) is that led by Poland, East European countries (Hungary, Romania) ( later in cooperation with Jewish groups) worked on solving their Jewish problem for some time already.
Even more, Poland conducted many talks/negotiations with all major powers, including the US, Britain, France on that subject.

For that reason, Poland didn't need the patronizing and offensive Hitler's help (not an offer, Hiter offered nothing.)

You find all that in all details in the book mentioned above.

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Re: Polish Ambassador Lipski offered Hitler a statue of him in Warsaw if he solved the Jewish Question

#27

Post by Boby » 19 Jul 2020, 11:30

Prove it was a joke.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Polish Ambassador Lipski offered Hitler a statue of him in Warsaw if he solved the Jewish Question

#28

Post by Sid Guttridge » 19 Jul 2020, 18:07

Hi wm,

I don't see that the remark carries any great significance of itself.

However, I would suggest that to describe Hitler as relatively "an angel in human form" is a little over the top! He was never that.

Nevertheless, your point that he was not then regarded as the irredeemable monster of later years is reasonable. Even Kristalnacht was still a couple of months in the future.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Polish Ambassador Lipski offered Hitler a statue of him in Warsaw if he solved the Jewish Question

#29

Post by wm » 20 Jul 2020, 10:33

Although it was in comparison with Stalin...


Boby wrote:
19 Jul 2020, 11:30
Prove it was a joke.
As I wrote it was an inside joke, funny if you got it, i.e., if you understood well the contemporary political realities in that part of Europe.

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Re: Polish Ambassador Lipski offered Hitler a statue of him in Warsaw if he solved the Jewish Question

#30

Post by Boby » 20 Jul 2020, 11:29

How do you know it was an inside joke? Lipski was your friend?

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