Related blood peoples - the Poles - citizenship after the invasion of Poland

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henryk
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Re: Related blood peoples - the Poles - citizenship after the invasion of Poland

#31

Post by henryk » 23 Sep 2019, 20:49

Steve wrote:
23 Sep 2019, 03:47
Hi, I wouldn’t characterise Nazi race policy in Poland as being particularly contradictory. No doubt different people at different times interpreted the policy in a contradictory manner but that’s no surprise. If you fell into one of the four categories on the Volksliste then to varying degrees you could be ok. If however you did not fall into one of the four categories then you were not ok and in the case of the Jews destined for extermination. Hitler in his second book strongly opposed the incorporation of Poles into the Reich as had happened before 1914.

DNA can now tell us how close various European populations are to each other. While Poles and Germans are close they are not very close. This site gives some information on the subject http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/poles.html as I am useless at science I cannot vouch for it. A search on the internet will bring up lots of stuff.

There was a study done years ago in the UK using a male DNA marker. It excluded large conurbations as they are now too mixed to be of any use. It seems that the male population of eastern England is almost indistinguishable from the male population on the other side of the North Sea. As you move west this thins out until you reach Wales. The male English population especially in the east has more in common with the other side of the North Sea than with the Welsh. The Welsh are closer to the Irish than to the English. Surely there is something equivalent with Polish DNA.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=70614
Genetic Closeness of Other European Populations to Polish.
This shows that Germans and Poles are close genetically. Using a measure "Genetic Distance" gives the top five closest to Poles"
Hungary: 25; Russia: 30; Belgium: 40; Germany: 47; Netherlands: 54. (England: 70).

gebhk
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Re: Related blood peoples - the Poles - citizenship after the invasion of Poland

#32

Post by gebhk » 25 Sep 2019, 12:52

While Poles and Germans are close they are not very close.
Quite so - though it is a matter of averages and degree, because again we are talking about a continuum and not a set of pigeonholes. Ironically, if I understand the site you have attached correctly, the Poles are, on average, more Aryan than the Germans. Ooops. Which probably explains why there are more, per capita, blonde/blue-eyed Poles than there are Germans.....
Last edited by gebhk on 25 Sep 2019, 17:16, edited 2 times in total.


gebhk
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Re: Related blood peoples - the Poles - citizenship after the invasion of Poland

#33

Post by gebhk » 25 Sep 2019, 17:13

I don't buy your last point. I would suggest that one of Germany's problems was that Hitler wasn't prepared to make concessions to the many tens of millions of people in Eastern Europe who were formerly under Soviet rule until late, and thereby lost useful cannon fodder in the war against the Russian SFSR.
Hi Sid. I'm not sure what it is that you disagree with as your explanation seems to be unconnected to anything I have said. To reiterate, my meaning is that it is entirely logical that if
only people of German descent have desirable qualities (major proposition),
(and) Jan Kowalski has desirable qualities (minor proposition),
then Jan Kowalski is of German descent (conclusion).
then the above is an entirely correct syllogism. All you have to believe are the two propositions (which most folk nowadays would consider complete tosh, but that is besides the point). And, of course, it is merely an illustration of how any contradictions could be entirely logically reconciled whenever it was wished. I am not saying that the principle was applied as much as it should have been by any rational person - indeed I am in total agreement that without the support of a significant portion of the population of the USSR, AHs plans for the war were doomed. AH was clearly deluded when he thought that the Germans' supposed 'racial superiority' will compensate for the economical inferiority of Germany in its conflict with the USSR, especially a USSR supported economically by the USA.

JosephCloud
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Re: Related blood peoples - the Poles - citizenship after the invasion of Poland

#34

Post by JosephCloud » 26 Sep 2019, 23:30

More about Hitler’s views on Poland and the Poles:
Consequently, in the 1920s, Germany's attitude vis-à-vis Poland was predominantly hostile. In view of this widespread anti-Polish sentiment it is surprising that Poland barely surfaced in Mein Kampf. There, Hitler did not exploit or even refer to these obvious anti-Polish sentiments. Hitler, in fact, did not comment on Germany's past and present relations with Poland or about its future relations under a National Socialist government. If Mein Kampf tells us anything at all about Poland, it is that Hitler rated the 'racial value' of the Poles as low - though without going into any detail.

Apart from this rather brief comment, Hitler mentioned Poland only in the context of his opposition to an alliance with Russia. According to Hitler's conclusion, accurate in the context of the Polish-Russian antagonism of the early 1920s and the Polish-French alliance, 'Russia would first have to subdue Poland' before it could join Germany in a war with 'Western Europe'. Only from Hitler's very curt assessment that Poland was 'completely in French hands' can it be assumed that he had little time for Germany's eastern neighbour.

Hitler's 1928 manuscript offers a slightly better insight into his views on Poland and the Poles. Again, he refers to the lower 'racial value' of the Poles - this time, however, in more detail and in stronger language. Again he deemed Poland a major obstacle in a potential Russian military move westward. More clearly in fact than in Mein Kampf Hitler concluded that 'a subjugation of Poland by Russia . . . is quite improbable' while he also discussed, in more detail, Poland's role as an ally of France and thus as a very likely enemy of Germany. In contrast to Mein Kampf, the Secret Book refers explicitly, though with surprising brevity, to the fate of those Silesians, East and West Prussians 'enslaved under Polish rule'. In attacking anti-Italian 'agitators' in Germany, Hitler reminded them that other nations, including Poland, had also committed crimes against the Germans.

By and large, however, Poland played only a marginal role in Hitler's major writings. What stands out from Mein Kampf and the Secret Book is Hitler's disapproval of the Polish 'race' and his agreement with the powerful anti-Polish and revisionist sentiment in Germany. Other sources of the 1920s reveal a similar attitude ('Poland was created from German blood') though again Hitler mentioned Poland only infrequently.
Christian Leitz’s “Nazi Foreign Policy, 1933-1941: The Road to Global War”, pages 63-64.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Related blood peoples - the Poles - citizenship after the invasion of Poland

#35

Post by Sid Guttridge » 27 Sep 2019, 12:32

Hi gebhk,

You posted, "On planet AH if someone displayed desirable attributes it ipso facto proved that they were of 'exclusively German descent'."

I replied, "I don't buy your last point. I would suggest that one of Germany's problems was that Hitler wasn't prepared to make concessions to the many tens of millions of people in Eastern Europe who were formerly under Soviet rule until late, and thereby lost useful cannon fodder in the war against the Russian SFSR."

The fact that Hitler was prepared to use some peoples and states as allies, doesn't mean that he thought "they were of exclusively German descent." They were merely tactically useful at a given moment as their use might save German lives.

But, such were Hitler's racial inhibitions, he couldn't even bring himself to make the necessary political concessions to the tens of millions of non-Russian Soviet subjects that would encourage them to take a willing and active part in the war against the USSR until far too late, or not at all.
Concessions to their national existence in 1945 were far too late.

Cheers,

Sid.

gebhk
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Re: Related blood peoples - the Poles - citizenship after the invasion of Poland

#36

Post by gebhk » 30 Sep 2019, 16:08

Hi Sid

Again I think we are at cross purposes. The subject is Poles not citizens of the Soviet Union and on the question of AHs approach to the latter we are, I believe, in complete agreement.

Also, I think you would agree, AHs opinions, were not the sole operating lever in the implementation of policy. The Nazi state, while tolerating no challenge to the power of the party, overt dissent from its ideological principles and the will of its virtually deified leader, appears to have had limited control over how that power, ideology and will were implemented. Indeed this process can only be described as chaotic as the four highly stratified vertical structures of reich, state, armed forces and party fought each other (and indeed were encouraged to fight) for influence, jurisdiction and prestige with duplication, triplication and quadruplication of functions being the rule rather than the exception. In such an environment, it is hardly surprising that principles of policy impacted very differently on different groups of people. The whole Volksliste/DVL shambles is a classical example - and that is before we even begin to look into how people were signed up to the various lists and allocated to the various 'classes' within them.

Suffice to say that one of my grandmothers (a resident of Krakow in the General Government, not even of the annexed territories) was invited to sign up the DVL as a category I/II German with all the rights and practical privileges this entailed. Her only connection to Germany or Germanness was that she was the widow of a Polish career officer who had a distant German ancestor and hence a German surname. She showed the uniformed Nazi functionaries the door; they meekly complied. I only met her once and she was a formidable lady - I believe the story. Incidentally, she was subsequently hounded to an early fatal heart attack by functionaries of the UB - ie Polish communist state security thugs. There is a sad irony in that.

But I digress, the point is that Germany, as you say, needed cannon fodder and to achieve that, the pool of manpower available for conscription needed to be widened. Also not every 'satrap' of the newly-created Gaus in the annexed portions of Poland was keen to lose their skilled manpower by deportation into the General Government in the interests of 'racial purity'. Both these needs, of course, required the creation of more Germans. To this end, people in the annexed territories were 'invited' to sign the DVL. Who was invited and to what 'class' of German he or she was assigned to, varied wildly between territories. In Upper Silesia signing up was compulsory for all. Those invited who failed to avail themselves of this kind invitation were initially sent to concentration camps with their families and from 1944, executed.

The point is that an estimated 375k Polish citizens were conscripted into the armed forces of the 3rd Reich on the basis of being newly-minted 'Germans'; a perfect example of the 'if they have desirable attributes, they must have German antecedents' principle. Given that these people had families, the numbers of people thus becoming 'German' at the stroke of a bureaucrat's pen were not inconsiderable (over 3 mil, it is estimated).

Interestingly, in the context of this discussion, the criteria for classification were heavily biased towards cultural rather than physical variables (such as membership of German clubs/associations, speaking German at home, pro-German political activity and such like). Ironically, Poles who had 'German' phycical characteristics (most of the tosh used to define/measure them has since been debunked, but that is besides the point in this context) and people of honest to goodness, genuine, provable German 'blood' who had become Polonised culturally, were placed at the bottom of this new class system. In other words, wanting to be a German made you more of a German in the eyes of the state than actually, genetically, being one.

Not something AH would have approved of I suspect, but there it was.

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