What was the punishment according to the Nuremberg Laws for race defilement?

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What was the punishment according to the Nuremberg Laws for race defilement?

Post by George L Gregory » 26 Jan 2021 00:58

Why was the death penalty for race defilement not covered according to the Nuremberg Laws and not implemented between 1935-1939?
During the war, there were even several cases in which the death penalty was imposed. Since the Blood Protection Law itself did not provide for the death penalty, the courts constructed a so-called nominal concurrence (sec. 73, Penal Code) with crimes that were punishable by death.
Diemut Majer, ”Non-Germans” Under the Third Reich, page 331.

Was it because more draconian measures were carried out during the war? The Polish Decrees which was about Polish workers stated that the death penalty would be carried out to any Pole who had sexual intercourse with a German.

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Re: What was the punishment according to the Nuremberg Laws for race defilement?

Post by wm » 28 Jan 2021 22:31

The death penalty for race defilement by whom? That was something completely impossible for political reasons.

Turkey reacted violently when they were declared non-Aryans in the thirties.
The death penalty for a Pole for race defilement would, without any exaggeration, have resulted in war.

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Re: What was the punishment according to the Nuremberg Laws for race defilement?

Post by George L Gregory » 29 Jan 2021 21:10

wm wrote:
28 Jan 2021 22:31
The death penalty for race defilement by whom? That was something completely impossible for political reasons.

Turkey reacted violently when they were declared non-Aryans in the thirties.
The death penalty for a Pole for race defilement would, without any exaggeration, have resulted in war.
The death penalty was carried out for race defilement during WW2 to Jews, Polish workers and other Eastern Workers for having sexual relations with Germans.

The death penalty for a Pole who had sexual relations with a German was not a part of the Nuremberg Laws, but it was a part of the Polish Decrees which were enacted on 8 March 1940. The Nazis even went to such extreme measures to prevent Poles and Germans having sexual relations that when Polish POWs raped two German women:
The practice went so far that even two young women from a village near Würzburg, one of whom (aged 16) was raped, and the other (aged 17), who was sexually assaulted by Polish prisoners of war in May 1940, had their heads shaved by the Storm Troopers and, with the permission of the magistrate and Party boss, then marched through the streets with signs round their necks that stated they were 'without honour'. The reaction of Catholic townsfolk, was 'complete rejected' of such measures. The injustice became doubly clear when a court later ruled that both women were innocent. Far from that giving pause to the Nazis, the Security Service (SD) that tracked public opinion noted that because of the deep shock of parents and family, these public defamation practices (unjust or not) showed the greater social impact of 'people's justice' over sending cases to court. The SD noted that the public relations effects lasted 'for weeks' as word of the events circulated. 'The most salutary effect' was the fear that such a thing could happen again, so that 'at least for the indefinite future' women would consider it prudent to avoid the Poles.
Robert Gellately, Backing Hitler: Consent and Coercion in Nazi Germany, page 182.

And:
The Gestapo continued to carry out public executions (by hanging) of Polish men, but did so away from spectators, still to the dismay of judicial authorities. In July 1941 a mildly phrased letter of complaint by the Nuremberg Higher Court President to the Minister of Justice in Berlin noted that the Gestapo hanged Julian Majlca for having an affair with a German who became pregnant (she was later given ten months in jail). After the execution all the Poles in the vicinity were marched past the body. ‘The fact that this execution took place without previous judicial hearing, was the subject of lively discussion.’ Apparently even the local Nazi Party boss was opposed. The same letter mentioned a case where the Gestapo in Regensburg went to the court jail, picked up another Pole being held for having forbidden relations and executed him. In November the same thing happened in the forest near Eschelbach, where the Pole Jarek was hanged for having relations with a 20-year-old woman. Again, 100 or so Poles from the area were led past. As a judicial report from mid-1942 makes clear, justice authorities were often left in the dark, knowing neither the charges nor even the number of such executions.

The issue of what should become of the German woman was much discussed among police authorities and the people. A popular response, as we have already seen, was that she should not be allowed to get off lightly. In a case from the Düsseldorf area (in June–July 1941), the minimum demand was that the woman have to witness the execution.

[...]

How the Poles were treated elsewhere is suggested by correspondence from other areas in Germany. Thus, a report from the Higher Court President in Jena on 31 May 1940 noted that two courts were supposed to deal with a Polish man who was accused of having sexual relations with a German woman; she was given seven years by the court, but before he could be tried, ‘an official of the Secret State Police appeared, took the files, and declared that the RSHA in Berlin had issued orders to hang the Pole’. In another case from the same area on 24 August 1940 the Gestapo took a man from the court prison in Gotha and hanged him in the presence of 50 Poles on the side of the road; the body remained there for 24 hours.
Ibid, various pages.

In fact, the Nazis even wanted to prevent the biological growth of Poles so by a decree that was passed on 10 September 1941 which imposed a partial marriage ban that made it only permissible for Polish women to marry at the age of 25 and Polish men to marry at the age of 28.

Eastern Workers were subjected to the same decrees as Polish workers which included the death penalty for sexual relations with Germans.

Turks were declared to be Aryans in 1936.

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Re: What was the punishment according to the Nuremberg Laws for race defilement?

Post by wm » 29 Jan 2021 22:47

between 1935-1939

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Re: What was the punishment according to the Nuremberg Laws for race defilement?

Post by George L Gregory » 30 Jan 2021 12:52

wm wrote:
29 Jan 2021 22:47
between 1935-1939
And???

There was no law prohibiting sexual relations between Germans and Jews during the first two years of the Third Reich - it wasn't until September 1935 that it became a criminal offence.

The point is that after 1939 the Nazis passed laws which forbid sexual relations between Germans and Jews which was classified as Rassenschande (race defilement).
Greiser had summarily stated in an order of the day that marriages between Poles and marriages between Jews were provisionally banned, that marriages between ethnic Germans must "comply with the Nuremberg Race Laws," and that "if at all possible," there should be no marriage between Germans and Poles.
Diemut Majer, "Non-Germans" Under the Third Reich, page 247.
One high point of such innovative legal interpretation was the tendency to punish Poles for behavior that was legally irrelevant according to the German-imposed Polish criminal statutes. Thus, it was generally agreed that sexual intercourse between Germans and Poles, even in cases where no criminal enticement was involved (sec. 176, no. 3, Penal Code), constituted a criminal act analogous to "race defilement," one that was punishable as "anti-German behavior" where the implicated Polish man was concerned (clause 1, par. 3, Decree on Penal Law for Poles). The interpretation of this clause took on truly grotesque features in ruling by special courts that sexual intercourse with Germans was “anti-German” because it represented an “attack on the honor of German womanhood” and thus was “an action detrimental to the sovereignty of the German Reich and the good name of the German people.” The courts generally presumed the existence of such an “attack” even when the sexual intercourse was consensual or indeed even initiated by the German woman.
Ibid, page 333.

So yes, the punishment for a Pole who had sexual relations with a German was the death penalty.

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Re: What was the punishment according to the Nuremberg Laws for race defilement?

Post by wm » 30 Jan 2021 18:39

You asked why wasn't the death penalty for race defilement ...implemented between 1935-1939?

For political reasons, it wasn't possible in that period.

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Re: What was the punishment according to the Nuremberg Laws for race defilement?

Post by Futurist » 30 Jan 2021 18:40

wm wrote:
30 Jan 2021 18:39
You asked why wasn't the death penalty for race defilement ...implemented between 1935-1939?

For political reasons, it wasn't possible in that period.
International/foreign relations during peacetime were too important?

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Re: What was the punishment according to the Nuremberg Laws for race defilement?

Post by Futurist » 30 Jan 2021 18:41

George L Gregory wrote:
30 Jan 2021 12:52
wm wrote:
29 Jan 2021 22:47
between 1935-1939
And???

There was no law prohibiting sexual relations between Germans and Jews during the first two years of the Third Reich - it wasn't until September 1935 that it became a criminal offence.

The point is that after 1939 the Nazis passed laws which forbid sexual relations between Germans and Jews which was classified as Rassenschande (race defilement).
Greiser had summarily stated in an order of the day that marriages between Poles and marriages between Jews were provisionally banned, that marriages between ethnic Germans must "comply with the Nuremberg Race Laws," and that "if at all possible," there should be no marriage between Germans and Poles.
Diemut Majer, "Non-Germans" Under the Third Reich, page 247.
One high point of such innovative legal interpretation was the tendency to punish Poles for behavior that was legally irrelevant according to the German-imposed Polish criminal statutes. Thus, it was generally agreed that sexual intercourse between Germans and Poles, even in cases where no criminal enticement was involved (sec. 176, no. 3, Penal Code), constituted a criminal act analogous to "race defilement," one that was punishable as "anti-German behavior" where the implicated Polish man was concerned (clause 1, par. 3, Decree on Penal Law for Poles). The interpretation of this clause took on truly grotesque features in ruling by special courts that sexual intercourse with Germans was “anti-German” because it represented an “attack on the honor of German womanhood” and thus was “an action detrimental to the sovereignty of the German Reich and the good name of the German people.” The courts generally presumed the existence of such an “attack” even when the sexual intercourse was consensual or indeed even initiated by the German woman.
Ibid, page 333.

So yes, the punishment for a Pole who had sexual relations with a German was the death penalty.
What about Poles who were German citizens?

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Re: What was the punishment according to the Nuremberg Laws for race defilement?

Post by wm » 30 Jan 2021 19:05

Futurist wrote:
30 Jan 2021 18:40
International/foreign relations during peacetime were too important?
Of course they were, Germany couldn't exist in vacuum.

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Re: What was the punishment according to the Nuremberg Laws for race defilement?

Post by Futurist » 30 Jan 2021 19:10

wm wrote:
30 Jan 2021 19:05
Futurist wrote:
30 Jan 2021 18:40
International/foreign relations during peacetime were too important?
Of course they were, Germany couldn't exist in vacuum.
And this is also why the Holocaust was impossible during peacetime, correct? Anyway, makes sense.

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Re: What was the punishment according to the Nuremberg Laws for race defilement?

Post by George L Gregory » 31 Jan 2021 10:25

Even Adolf Hitler had advocated the death of Jews who had sexual relations with non-Jews as early as 1922!
In 1922, Hitler stated what he wanted: "The Jews seduce our young girls, and thereby infect the people. Every Jew caught with a blond girl, should be . . . (hanged!) . . . we need a court that sentences these Jews to death."
Also, even before it became a criminal offence after the Nuremberg Laws were passed in 1935, the Nazis took matters into their own hands as soon as they came to power:
During the first years of the dictatorship, "race defilement" cases often began with a denunciation from a citizen or passerby in the street and seemed to end blithely with the Gestapo putting an accused person in "protective custody." In fact, the victims could be sent off to a concentration camp where cruelties could be inflicted for months. That happened to Louis Schloss from Nuremberg, who ended up in Dachau on May 15, 1933, and was immediately beaten so badly that he died the next day of his wounds. And all of this happened more than two years before his "crime" made it onto the books.
Robert Gellately, Hitler's True Believers How Ordinary People Became Nazis, page 253.

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Re: What was the punishment according to the Nuremberg Laws for race defilement?

Post by wm » 31 Jan 2021 13:42

Futurist wrote:
30 Jan 2021 19:10
And this is also why the Holocaust was impossible during peacetime, correct? Anyway, makes sense.
The Holocaust required a lost war, a defeat that only "wonder" means could avert.
The killing of Soviet prisoners, Nazi-made famine in the USSR, the Holocaust were such means.

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Re: What was the punishment according to the Nuremberg Laws for race defilement?

Post by George L Gregory » 31 Jan 2021 14:32

wm wrote:
31 Jan 2021 13:42
Futurist wrote:
30 Jan 2021 19:10
And this is also why the Holocaust was impossible during peacetime, correct? Anyway, makes sense.
The Holocaust required a lost war, a defeat that only "wonder" means could avert.
The killing of Soviet prisoners, Nazi-made famine in the USSR, the Holocaust were such means.
What???

The Nazis envisaged a victorious war so they could carry out their real ideas and plans e.g. the complete Final Solution to the Jewish Question and the Generalplan Ost.

The war simply allowed the Nazis to carry out the Holocaust because it was able to be done in secret and without the knowledge of most Germans. The war also allowed the Nazis to make-up excuses for the killings of Jews such as describing the Jews as partisans.

Similarly, and which is relative to the topic of this thread, the war allowed the Nazis to carry out brutal measures against those who were accused of having committed race defilement. Before the war the punishment was for someone to be sent to a concentration camp and during the war the punishment was for someone to be hanged.

Just remember what Joseph Goebbels wrote on 27 March 1942:
Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labour.

The former Gauleiter of Vienna, who is to carry this measure through, is doing it with considerable circumspection and according to a method that does not attract too much attention. A judgment is being visited upon the Jews that, while barbaric, is fully deserved by them. The prophesy which the Fuehrer made about them for having brought on a new world war is beginning to come true in a most terrible manner. One must not be sentimental in these matters. If we did not fight the Jews, they would destroy us. It's a life-and-death struggle between the Aryan race and the Jewish bacillus. No other government and no other regime would have the strength for such a global solution of this question. Here, too, the Führer is the undismayed champion of a radical solution necessitated by conditions and therefore inexorable. Fortunately a whole series of possibilities presents itself for us in wartime that would be denied us in peacetime. We shall have to profit by this.

The ghettoes that will be emptied in the cities of the General Government now will be refilled with Jews thrown out of the Reich. This process is to be repeated from time to time. There is nothing funny in it for the Jews, and the fact that Jewry's representatives in England and America are today organizing and sponsoring the war against Germany must be paid for dearly by its representatives in Europe - and that's only right.

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Re: What was the punishment according to the Nuremberg Laws for race defilement?

Post by wm » 05 Feb 2021 22:18

George L Gregory wrote:
31 Jan 2021 14:32
The Nazis envisaged a victorious war so they could carry out their real ideas and plans e.g. the complete Final Solution to the Jewish Question
When?
I hope that the concepts of Jews will be completely extinguished through the possibility of a large emigration of all Jews to Africa or some other colony.
Reflections on the Treatment of Peoples of Alien Races in the East", a secret memorandum handed to Hitler by Himmler on 25 May 1940
On Saturday, 25 May 1940, I handed my memorandum on the treatment of peoples of alien race in the East to the Fuehrer. The Fuehrer read the six pages and considered them very good and correct.
File Note of Himmler, 28 May 1940

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Re: What was the punishment according to the Nuremberg Laws for race defilement?

Post by George L Gregory » 05 Feb 2021 22:32

wm wrote:
05 Feb 2021 22:18
George L Gregory wrote:
31 Jan 2021 14:32
The Nazis envisaged a victorious war so they could carry out their real ideas and plans e.g. the complete Final Solution to the Jewish Question
When?
I hope that the concepts of Jews will be completely extinguished through the possibility of a large emigration of all Jews to Africa or some other colony.
Reflections on the Treatment of Peoples of Alien Races in the East", a secret memorandum handed to Hitler by Himmler on 25 May 1940
On Saturday, 25 May 1940, I handed my memorandum on the treatment of peoples of alien race in the East to the Fuehrer. The Fuehrer read the six pages and considered them very good and correct.
File Note of Himmler, 28 May 1940
What Himmler said in 1940 was abandoned and the Nazis gradually adopted the decision not to forcefully expel Jews from Germany, but to exterminate Jews.

Hitler in 1942:
And we say that the war will not end as the Jews imagine it will, namely with the uprooting of the Aryans, but the result of this war will be the complete annihilation of the Jews.
Himmler in 1943:
I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It's one of those things that is easily said: 'The Jewish people are being exterminated', says every party member, 'this is very obvious, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it, hah, a small matter.' And then they turn up, the upstanding 80 million Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. They say the others are all swines, but this particular one is a splendid Jew. But none has observed it, endured it. Most of you here know what it means when 100 corpses lie next to each other, when there are 500 or when there are 1,000. To have endured this and at the same time to have remained a decent person — with exceptions due to human weaknesses — has made us tough, and is a glorious chapter that has not and will not be spoken of. Because we know how difficult it would be for us if we still had Jews as secret saboteurs, agitators and rabble-rousers in every city, what with the bombings, with the burden and with the hardships of the war. If the Jews were still part of the German nation, we would most likely arrive now at the state we were at in 1916 and 17 [...]

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