"related blood" in documents

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George L Gregory
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"related blood" in documents

Post by George L Gregory » 08 Mar 2021 22:16

Which peoples were considered to be of "German or related blood" (Deutschen oder artverwandten Blutes) by the Nazis?

What about Poles, Italians, Russians, Slovenians, Romanians, Portuguese, Spanish, etc? Did the term 'related blood' cover all of the European people? What about people like Turks, Iranians, etc?

GregSingh
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Re: "related blood" in documents

Post by GregSingh » 09 Mar 2021 10:15

AFAIK there was no official legal document which listed "related blood" nations.

It was much easier to do the opposite - to single out "non-related blood". So here official State legislative enactments mentioned Jews only.
A circular issued by Ministry of Interior in November 1935 which was sent to marriage Registry offices, named also "Gypsies, Negroes and their bastards".

After the war started a number of regulations was announced which dealt with problem of sexual intercourse between Germans and foreign workers, started with Polen-Erlasse.
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

George L Gregory
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Re: "related blood" in documents

Post by George L Gregory » 12 Mar 2021 16:27

GregSingh wrote:
09 Mar 2021 10:15
AFAIK there was no official legal document which listed "related blood" nations.

It was much easier to do the opposite - to single out "non-related blood". So here official State legislative enactments mentioned Jews only.
A circular issued by Ministry of Interior in November 1935 which was sent to marriage Registry offices, named also "Gypsies, Negroes and their bastards".

After the war started a number of regulations was announced which dealt with problem of sexual intercourse between Germans and foreign workers, started with Polen-Erlasse.
Hi Greg,

But, the Nazis did not easily manage to define who was a Gypsy or a Pole. Even defining a Jew was problematic because the first decree in 1933 with regard to civil servants considered anyone with one Jewish grandparent to be a Jew. Fast forward a couple of years and the 1935 Nuremberg Laws allowed a person with one Jewish grandparent to be a Reich citizen and to have sexual relations and marry a German; only people who had three or four Jewish grandparents (determined by religion) were considered to be Jews.
In practice, however, the first term to be widely employed was of Aryan descent; yet from 1935 on, the expressions German or related blood or German-bloodedness were substituted, as the term Aryan was purely linguistic in origin and not capable of even pseudoscientific justification. But these terms were just as imprecise as the terms previously used, Aryan and non-Aryan, for they either exhausted themselves in purely negative definitions (non-Jewish, noncolored), or else they defined German blood as being the "blood of the various races" of which the German yolk was composed, as the blood of "peoples racially related" to it; but they never did define what race or racially related actually meant.
Diemut Majer, "Non-Germans" Under the Third Reich", page 40.

Majer continued on page 60:
Neither the term 'Aryan' nor the term 'non-Aryan' was ever satisfactorily defined.
Again, on page 113:
Whereas the earlier provisions under special law had used the terms Aryan descent or non-Aryan descent, after the Nuremberg Laws of September 15, 1935, took effect, the only term in use was German or racially related blood or non-German or racially unrelated blood—even though these terms were never officially defined. Persons of "German or racially related blood" were in future to be grouped together under the expression German-blooded, a term, however, that did not take hold to any great extent until the relevant regulations were promulgated beginning in 1939.
I suppose that's why such ambiguous wording meant that different Nazis could apply different treatments towards the peoples in the occupied territories.

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Hans1906
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Re: "related blood" in documents

Post by Hans1906 » 12 Mar 2021 17:54

"Artverwandtes Blut" is the keyword, but I am not the person, to share more about all this.

If my biological father from the USA had not been white, perhaps an African American, then my childhood years here in Germany would have looked very different, very much different....


Hans1906

George L Gregory
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Re: "related blood" in documents

Post by George L Gregory » 12 Mar 2021 21:12

Hans1906 wrote:
12 Mar 2021 17:54
"Artverwandtes Blut" is the keyword, but I am not the person, to share more about all this.

If my biological father from the USA had not been white, perhaps an African American, then my childhood years here in Germany would have looked very different, very much different....


Hans1906
Hi Hans,

I know what the term "related blood" means in German, but what did it actually mean to the Nazis? What about Poles, Russians, Spaniards, Italians, etc? Plenty of Germans in what is now Eastern Germany had Polish ancestry. Places like Silesia tend to be more German-Polish mixed too.

I don't recall any Pole or any other non-German being a member of the Hitler Youth.

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Hans1906
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Re: "related blood" in documents

Post by Hans1906 » 12 Mar 2021 21:59

George,

it is not my "job" to tell you more details, you are asking all the many questions, and you will find about all this.
Go to Germany, talk to the elder people, visit all the places, lay down some flowers.

And "listen", this is most important, our fault is universal.


Hans1906

George L Gregory
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Re: "related blood" in documents

Post by George L Gregory » 14 Mar 2021 23:12

Hans1906 wrote:
12 Mar 2021 21:59
George,

it is not my "job" to tell you more details, you are asking all the many questions, and you will find about all this.
Go to Germany, talk to the elder people, visit all the places, lay down some flowers.

And "listen", this is most important, our fault is universal.


Hans1906
Well then why the hell did you even bother to post on this thread?

gebhk
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Re: "related blood" in documents

Post by gebhk » 15 Mar 2021 10:03

Good morning

I think, fundamentally, the problem is that 'national characteristics' which are a product of genetics, experience and physical and cultural environment were imagined to be a product of genetics only. They were assumed to be fixed which they are not. And they were defined, in this case, on the basis of pretty much one man's prejudice rather than objective data (ie they are one man's cartoon characters). It is hardly surprising, therefore, that all this tosh defied any attempt at rational definition. A definition that a Jew is someone with x Jewish grandparents is meaningless unless you can define what a 'Jew' is, in the first place - in which case it becomes redundant.

You could with equal validity try to define a Japanese as someone with buck teeth and giant glasses, an Englishman as someone who wears a bowler hat, carries an umbrella, has an upper lip so stiff that it hurts and is probably gay and a Frenchman as a bicycle-riding, onion festooned, habitual beret-wearer in a striped shirt who survives on a diet of baguettes, red wine and cheese (and garlic). And then argue that these characteristics are down to their respective 'blood'. Of course, all of this codswallop was treated seriously in many quarters long before Nazi Germany and, no doubt, continues still. However, it's the Nazis' attempts to codify race definitions into law that exposed just how baseless and nonsensical it all was.

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Hans1906
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Re: "related blood" in documents

Post by Hans1906 » 15 Mar 2021 13:14

Motorcycle friends from Finland first visited us here in Germany in the 1980s.

Our friend M. from Finland was very tall, a young man with white-blond hair and water-blue eyes visited us in our house.
The young man wore a haircut typical of the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS in the years before 1945.

When my grandmother saw the young man from Finland for the first time, the old lady was completely thrilled, and she said:
"This is how a man from Finland must look, tall, blond, blue eyes, this is how we remember the Finnish soldiers!"

The whole old ideology about the Nordic race bursted out of my grandmother with that one sentence.
Our Finnish friend could not understand my grandma's enthusiasm, the young man did not understand a single word, he just smiled.
Just a little anecdote from the 1980s, but at that time I understood how deeply rooted this way of thinking was in people like my grandma.

Just a single minute, I still remember the spontaneous enthusiasm of the grandmother.
Should I hate the old lady for that today, certainly not, and there are some memories in that vein.


Hans1906

P.S. The attached photo, which many of you will know, that shows the person of that time, the ideal type that my grandmother very certainly thought of. This is exactly what the parents wanted to see forged from their soft son, hence the NPEA, the "Napola".
A huge pile of shit, I can't remember it any better from my own family history.
And you push this pile of shit in front of you all your life, it's always in front of you.
Stolen children's years, what else can I write....
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

gebhk
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Re: "related blood" in documents

Post by gebhk » 18 Mar 2021 08:19

Hi Hans

The irony is that it would appear that if you use the blond hair/blue eyes combo as a yardstick, the Poles, British and even Russians are 'more related by blood' to the Fins than the Germans.

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Hans1906
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Re: "related blood" in documents

Post by Hans1906 » 18 Mar 2021 12:51

Hi gebhk,

the above attached photo probably from a former "Signal" propaganda magazine, I am not aware about the original source ?

My intention was merely to recount my grandmother's reaction at the time to this young man from Finland, that's what I remembered after all.
Very typical of my childhood days here in Germany, even in the 1980s this old ideology was still in the minds of our parents and grandparents.

All of that has hopefully come to an end, but unfortunately these "Ideals" are still valid, even in 2021.
My young uncle's photos from his years in the NPEA showed just that.

Before my personal time, I may please not judge, all this is too "close" to our German past, even today.


Hans1906

gebhk
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Re: "related blood" in documents

Post by gebhk » 18 Mar 2021 13:21

Hi Hans

No judgement implied. It's all hooey.

Just pointing out the irony of the inconsistencies in Nazi belief. If blond and blue-eyed people are supposed to be superior to other colourings then the statistical Pole and Russian was and is superior to the statistical German. Oops. Mind you, its not as illogical as it would seem. I've always thought that the sort of murderous animus that the Nazis displayed comes from deep-rooted feelings of inferiority and envy. Though why on earth, given the massive German contributions to culture, science and technology, any German should feel that way is beyond me.

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Hans1906
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Re: "related blood" in documents

Post by Hans1906 » 18 Mar 2021 13:49

Hi gebhk,

The answer is simple, even today you are judged as a tall person with blue eyes and light hair as a typical German.
You have better chances in life, in every job, in every bank, in every German authority.

That is quite simply the case, and anyone who denies all this is speaking the untruth.
I myself look exactly like that, and I speak from my own experience.

If you don't look "German" these days, you are a second class person, I know this from hundreds of conversations with the African American lady of my heart, unfortunately.
It hurts me personally, but it's just the same, racism is everywhere, just around the next corner, and not only here in Germany.

A deeply antisocial behavior towards everyone, this is unfortunately a reflection of our modern society.
People no longer care about each other, everyone is next to themselves, and anyone who looks different falls completely out of the German mold.


Hans1906

George L Gregory
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Re: "related blood" in documents

Post by George L Gregory » 18 Mar 2021 22:10

Hans1906 wrote:
18 Mar 2021 13:49
Hi gebhk,

The answer is simple, even today you are judged as a tall person with blue eyes and light hair as a typical German.
You have better chances in life, in every job, in every bank, in every German authority.

That is quite simply the case, and anyone who denies all this is speaking the untruth.
I myself look exactly like that, and I speak from my own experience.

If you don't look "German" these days, you are a second class person, I know this from hundreds of conversations with the African American lady of my heart, unfortunately.
It hurts me personally, but it's just the same, racism is everywhere, just around the next corner, and not only here in Germany.

A deeply antisocial behavior towards everyone, this is unfortunately a reflection of our modern society.
People no longer care about each other, everyone is next to themselves, and anyone who looks different falls completely out of the German mold.


Hans1906
Your anecdotal evidence about how Germans think about people who aren’t blonde hair and blue eyed based on conversations with the “African American lady of my heart” does not represent how the masses of Germans think about racism, Germans with blonde hair and blue eyes and people who aren’t German.

Most Germans avoid even saying they are proud to be German or anything that could even be remotely considered nationalist due to potentially being labelled as a ‘Nazi’ or any other derogatory term.

Seppo Koivisto
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Re: "related blood" in documents

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 19 Mar 2021 10:45

The gene mutations causing light color eyes and hair were common among 'white-eyed' Chudes, who inhabited the north west Russia hundreds of years ago. That is why these features are still common in the region, 89% of Finns having light colored eyes (blue, grey, green).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chud
http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Frost_06.html

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