Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

[Gorque]

There are some really intelligent military leaders there...looking very sharp in the videos. There is another video of Mannerheim visiting AH in return in Germany in 1942.

Here: https://elavamuisti.fi/aikajana/suomen- ... erin-luona

If you could read the narrative...it is very revealing.

Hi Topspeed:

Both excellent films. In the second film, did the Finnish delegation pay a visit to Reichsjägerhof Rominten?

In the first one I noticed A.H. and Keitel paying special attention to Dietl.

I also like the filler footage of the hay stacker in both films.

[Topspeed]

A bizarre situation appeared in relation to the recruitment of the battalion. Since, according to Nazi racial theories, the Finnish people were not pure Aryans, Berlin preferred candidates from a Swedish-speaking background. The Finnish recruitment offers seem to have paid little attention to this, since the number of Finno-Swedes among the recruits was only marginally higher than the national average.

Claes Johansen, Hitler's Nordic Ally?: Finland and the Total War 1939 - 1945, page 157.

David Stahel in his book Joining Hitler's Crusade on page 33 states pretty much the same thing.

I remember reading about how Finnish anthropologists tried to argue that Finns, Estonians and Hungarians were Europeans and not Mongolians.

Don't mongolians live in Mongolia ?

Erm, have you never heard of historical migration and historical invasions?

They got nowhere near Finland.

[Topspeed]

There are some really intelligent military leaders there...looking very sharp in the videos. There is another video of Mannerheim visiting AH in return in Germany in 1942.

Here: https://elavamuisti.fi/aikajana/suomen- ... erin-luona

If you could read the narrative...it is very revealing.

Hi Topspeed:

Both excellent films. In the second film, did the Finnish delegation pay a visit to Reichsjägerhof Rominten?

In the first one I noticed A.H. and Keitel paying special attention to Dietl.

I also like the filler footage of the hay stacker in both films.

There is even small satire in it already in 1942..."Göring displays the image that we have of the nazis" !!!! It is almost an open insult ( unless the speaker is a nazi himself ) !

[George L Gregory]

A bizarre situation appeared in relation to the recruitment of the battalion. Since, according to Nazi racial theories, the Finnish people were not pure Aryans, Berlin preferred candidates from a Swedish-speaking background. The Finnish recruitment offers seem to have paid little attention to this, since the number of Finno-Swedes among the recruits was only marginally higher than the national average.

Claes Johansen, Hitler's Nordic Ally?: Finland and the Total War 1939 - 1945, page 157.

David Stahel in his book Joining Hitler's Crusade on page 33 states pretty much the same thing.

I remember reading about how Finnish anthropologists tried to argue that Finns, Estonians and Hungarians were Europeans and not Mongolians.

Don't mongolians live in Mongolia ?

Erm, have you never heard of historical migration and historical invasions?

They got nowhere near Finland.

Well…

With regard to the Y-chromosome, the most common haplogroups of the Finns are N1c (59%), I1a (28%), R1a (5%) and R1b (3.5%).[59] Haplogroup N1c, which is found mainly in a few countries in Europe (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, Russia), is a subgroup of the haplogroup N (Y-DNA) distributed across northern Eurasia and estimated to have entered Europe from Asia.

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201748

Finns show very little if any Mediterranean and African genes but on the other hand almost 10% of Finnish genes seem to be shared with East Asian and Siberian populations. Nevertheless, more than 80% of Finnish genes are from a single ancient Northeastern European population (the ancient Corded Ware culture), while most Europeans are a mixture of 3 or more principal components. Most male Finns belong to the Y-DNA Haplogroup N (M231). It is generally considered that N-M231 arose in East Asia approximately 19,400 (±4,800) years ago and re-populated northern Eurasia after the Last Glacial Maximum. Males carrying the marker apparently moved northwards as the climate warmed in the Holocene, migrating in a counter-clockwise path (through modern China and Mongolia), to eventually become concentrated in areas as far away as Fennoscandia and the Baltic. The apparent extinction of haplogroup N-M231 amongst Native American peoples indicates that it spread after Beringia was submerged,[68] about 11,000 years ago. Most samples from the Liao civilization in northeast China and northern Korea belonged to y-DNA N. N has been found in many samples of Neolithic human remains exhumed from northeastern China and the circum-Baikal area of southern Siberia. It is thus suggested that the ancestors of the Uralic-peoples and of the Turkic-Yakut peoples may have originated in this region about 8000–6000 years ago.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3850526/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#Genetics

[Topspeed]

Claes Johansen, Hitler's Nordic Ally?: Finland and the Total War 1939 - 1945, page 157.

David Stahel in his book Joining Hitler's Crusade on page 33 states pretty much the same thing.

I remember reading about how Finnish anthropologists tried to argue that Finns, Estonians and Hungarians were Europeans and not Mongolians.

Don't mongolians live in Mongolia ?

Erm, have you never heard of historical migration and historical invasions?

They got nowhere near Finland.

Well…

With regard to the Y-chromosome, the most common haplogroups of the Finns are N1c (59%), I1a (28%), R1a (5%) and R1b (3.5%).[59] Haplogroup N1c, which is found mainly in a few countries in Europe (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, Russia), is a subgroup of the haplogroup N (Y-DNA) distributed across northern Eurasia and estimated to have entered Europe from Asia.

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201748

Finns show very little if any Mediterranean and African genes but on the other hand almost 10% of Finnish genes seem to be shared with East Asian and Siberian populations. Nevertheless, more than 80% of Finnish genes are from a single ancient Northeastern European population (the ancient Corded Ware culture), while most Europeans are a mixture of 3 or more principal components. Most male Finns belong to the Y-DNA Haplogroup N (M231). It is generally considered that N-M231 arose in East Asia approximately 19,400 (±4,800) years ago and re-populated northern Eurasia after the Last Glacial Maximum. Males carrying the marker apparently moved northwards as the climate warmed in the Holocene, migrating in a counter-clockwise path (through modern China and Mongolia), to eventually become concentrated in areas as far away as Fennoscandia and the Baltic. The apparent extinction of haplogroup N-M231 amongst Native American peoples indicates that it spread after Beringia was submerged,[68] about 11,000 years ago. Most samples from the Liao civilization in northeast China and northern Korea belonged to y-DNA N. N has been found in many samples of Neolithic human remains exhumed from northeastern China and the circum-Baikal area of southern Siberia. It is thus suggested that the ancestors of the Uralic-peoples and of the Turkic-Yakut peoples may have originated in this region about 8000–6000 years ago.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3850526/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#Genetics

Seems to be false data there ( just see the research team ).

Finns are 3/4 european: http://sydaby.eget.net/swe/jp_finns.htm

Lithuanians are almost totally eastern race.

Whereas Samis are partially fully western race ( basque related ).

[Topspeed]

Don't mongolians live in Mongolia ?

Erm, have you never heard of historical migration and historical invasions?

They got nowhere near Finland.

Well…

With regard to the Y-chromosome, the most common haplogroups of the Finns are N1c (59%), I1a (28%), R1a (5%) and R1b (3.5%).[59] Haplogroup N1c, which is found mainly in a few countries in Europe (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, Russia), is a subgroup of the haplogroup N (Y-DNA) distributed across northern Eurasia and estimated to have entered Europe from Asia.

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201748

Finns show very little if any Mediterranean and African genes but on the other hand almost 10% of Finnish genes seem to be shared with East Asian and Siberian populations. Nevertheless, more than 80% of Finnish genes are from a single ancient Northeastern European population (the ancient Corded Ware culture), while most Europeans are a mixture of 3 or more principal components. Most male Finns belong to the Y-DNA Haplogroup N (M231). It is generally considered that N-M231 arose in East Asia approximately 19,400 (±4,800) years ago and re-populated northern Eurasia after the Last Glacial Maximum. Males carrying the marker apparently moved northwards as the climate warmed in the Holocene, migrating in a counter-clockwise path (through modern China and Mongolia), to eventually become concentrated in areas as far away as Fennoscandia and the Baltic. The apparent extinction of haplogroup N-M231 amongst Native American peoples indicates that it spread after Beringia was submerged,[68] about 11,000 years ago. Most samples from the Liao civilization in northeast China and northern Korea belonged to y-DNA N. N has been found in many samples of Neolithic human remains exhumed from northeastern China and the circum-Baikal area of southern Siberia. It is thus suggested that the ancestors of the Uralic-peoples and of the Turkic-Yakut peoples may have originated in this region about 8000–6000 years ago.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3850526/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#Genetics

Seems to be false data there ( just see the research team ).

Finns are 3/4 european: http://sydaby.eget.net/swe/jp_finns.htm

Lithuanians are almost totally eastern race.

Whereas Samis are partially fully western race ( basque related ).

Subutai and his horde never reached Finland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BbbLDwi5LA

[Seppo Koivisto]

https://elavamuisti.fi/aikajana/suomen- ... erin-luona

In the second film, did the Finnish delegation pay a visit to Reichsjägerhof Rominten?

Yes it is Reichsjägerhof Rominten they visited. In 1935 Göring had invited Mannerheim to see the German aviation industry and they knew each other from that time.

Mannerheim had a sour knee and used a walking stick, but it was prohibited to film him with a stick.

The camera man Felix Forsman has told that during the return flight Mannerheim had asked the chief of information department Captain Kalle Lehmus what were his thoughts after the visit. Lehmus answered that the visit has strengthen his opinion, that Hitler's campaign will end in a fiasco. Mannerheim agreed that that has been his thoughts some time too.

In the end Mannerheim forbade the distribution of the film.

https://suomenkuvalehti.fi/jutut/kotima ... a-saksaan/

[Gorque]

https://elavamuisti.fi/aikajana/suomen- ... erin-luona

In the second film, did the Finnish delegation pay a visit to Reichsjägerhof Rominten?

Yes it is Reichsjägerhof Rominten they visited. In 1935 Göring had invited Mannerheim to see the German aviation industry and they knew each other from that time.

Mannerheim had a sour knee and used a walking stick, but it was prohibited to film him with a stick.

The camera man Felix Forsman has told that during the return flight Mannerheim had asked the chief of information department Captain Kalle Lehmus what were his thoughts after the visit. Lehmus answered that the visit has strengthen his opinion, that Hitler's campaign will end in a fiasco. Mannerheim agreed that that has been his thoughts some time too.

In the end Mannerheim forbade the distribution of the film.

Hi Seppo Koivisto:

Thank you for the detailed response and the article link.

I was looking at the face of Mannerheim in both films and he appears very reserved, especially in the second one, when meeting with A.H. and Keitel.

All the best.

[George L Gregory]

Don't mongolians live in Mongolia ?

Erm, have you never heard of historical migration and historical invasions?

They got nowhere near Finland.

Well…

With regard to the Y-chromosome, the most common haplogroups of the Finns are N1c (59%), I1a (28%), R1a (5%) and R1b (3.5%).[59] Haplogroup N1c, which is found mainly in a few countries in Europe (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, Russia), is a subgroup of the haplogroup N (Y-DNA) distributed across northern Eurasia and estimated to have entered Europe from Asia.

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201748

Finns show very little if any Mediterranean and African genes but on the other hand almost 10% of Finnish genes seem to be shared with East Asian and Siberian populations. Nevertheless, more than 80% of Finnish genes are from a single ancient Northeastern European population (the ancient Corded Ware culture), while most Europeans are a mixture of 3 or more principal components. Most male Finns belong to the Y-DNA Haplogroup N (M231). It is generally considered that N-M231 arose in East Asia approximately 19,400 (±4,800) years ago and re-populated northern Eurasia after the Last Glacial Maximum. Males carrying the marker apparently moved northwards as the climate warmed in the Holocene, migrating in a counter-clockwise path (through modern China and Mongolia), to eventually become concentrated in areas as far away as Fennoscandia and the Baltic. The apparent extinction of haplogroup N-M231 amongst Native American peoples indicates that it spread after Beringia was submerged,[68] about 11,000 years ago. Most samples from the Liao civilization in northeast China and northern Korea belonged to y-DNA N. N has been found in many samples of Neolithic human remains exhumed from northeastern China and the circum-Baikal area of southern Siberia. It is thus suggested that the ancestors of the Uralic-peoples and of the Turkic-Yakut peoples may have originated in this region about 8000–6000 years ago.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3850526/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#Genetics

Seems to be false data there ( just see the research team ).

Finns are 3/4 european: http://sydaby.eget.net/swe/jp_finns.htm

Lithuanians are almost totally eastern race.

Whereas Samis are partially fully western race ( basque related ).

You’ve provided no evidence of any “false data”.

Your source doesn’t state that Finns are “3/4 European”. And, the source you used states:

DNA scientists nevertheless postulate that the Finno-Ugric population absorbed an influx of migrating Indo-European farming communities ("Indo-European" both genetically and, by that stage, also in the language they spoke). The newcomers altered the original genetic makeup of the Finno-Ugric population, but nevertheless adopted their language. This, in a nutshell, explains the origin of the Finns, according to the DNA scientists. The Samis, however, are a much older population in the opinion of DNA scientists, and their origin has yet to be established conclusively.

Thus, neither you nor anyone else can truly say what the exact origins of the Finns are because no one knows at the point.

By the way, it is not my claim that Finns are descended from Mongols. What I pointed out was that during the Third Reich both German and Finnish anthropologists debated about the origins of the Finns.

[Topspeed]

Erm, have you never heard of historical migration and historical invasions?

They got nowhere near Finland.

Well…

With regard to the Y-chromosome, the most common haplogroups of the Finns are N1c (59%), I1a (28%), R1a (5%) and R1b (3.5%).[59] Haplogroup N1c, which is found mainly in a few countries in Europe (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, Russia), is a subgroup of the haplogroup N (Y-DNA) distributed across northern Eurasia and estimated to have entered Europe from Asia.

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201748

Finns show very little if any Mediterranean and African genes but on the other hand almost 10% of Finnish genes seem to be shared with East Asian and Siberian populations. Nevertheless, more than 80% of Finnish genes are from a single ancient Northeastern European population (the ancient Corded Ware culture), while most Europeans are a mixture of 3 or more principal components. Most male Finns belong to the Y-DNA Haplogroup N (M231). It is generally considered that N-M231 arose in East Asia approximately 19,400 (±4,800) years ago and re-populated northern Eurasia after the Last Glacial Maximum. Males carrying the marker apparently moved northwards as the climate warmed in the Holocene, migrating in a counter-clockwise path (through modern China and Mongolia), to eventually become concentrated in areas as far away as Fennoscandia and the Baltic. The apparent extinction of haplogroup N-M231 amongst Native American peoples indicates that it spread after Beringia was submerged,[68] about 11,000 years ago. Most samples from the Liao civilization in northeast China and northern Korea belonged to y-DNA N. N has been found in many samples of Neolithic human remains exhumed from northeastern China and the circum-Baikal area of southern Siberia. It is thus suggested that the ancestors of the Uralic-peoples and of the Turkic-Yakut peoples may have originated in this region about 8000–6000 years ago.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3850526/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#Genetics

Seems to be false data there ( just see the research team ).

Finns are 3/4 european: http://sydaby.eget.net/swe/jp_finns.htm

Lithuanians are almost totally eastern race.

Whereas Samis are partially fully western race ( basque related ).

You’ve provided no evidence of any “false data”.

Your source doesn’t state that Finns are “3/4 European”. And, the source you used states:

DNA scientists nevertheless postulate that the Finno-Ugric population absorbed an influx of migrating Indo-European farming communities ("Indo-European" both genetically and, by that stage, also in the language they spoke). The newcomers altered the original genetic makeup of the Finno-Ugric population, but nevertheless adopted their language. This, in a nutshell, explains the origin of the Finns, according to the DNA scientists. The Samis, however, are a much older population in the opinion of DNA scientists, and their origin has yet to be established conclusively.

Thus, neither you nor anyone else can truly say what the exact origins of the Finns are because no one knows at the point.

By the way, it is not my claim that Finns are descended from Mongols. What I pointed out was that during the Third Reich both German and Finnish anthropologists debated about the origins of the Finns.

The way the "study" stacks up all baltic states as one dna group...is already so wrong. Makes me puke...don't you have any ability to judge things yourself ?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Topspeed,

This is not a matter of opinion but of objective facts.

We all have an ability to judge things for ourselves, but we do not all have the necessary information and skills to do so constructively.

GLG has put some sourced facts in front of you. If you have nothing equivalent to contradict them, let's move on.

Cheers,

Sid

[George L Gregory]

At the time when the Nazis came to power, they thought that Finns (and Hungarians) were not Europeans. Shortly after they came to power, the Civil Service Law was introduced and with the following definition of “Aryan” by Albert Gorter, another prominent ministry official:

The Finns and Hungarians belong to the Mongolian race; but it is hardly the intention of the law to treat them as non-Aryans.

Eric Ehrenreich wrote:

The “racial status” of Finns, Hungarians, and other Eastern Europeans, for example, was in constant flux during the Nazi era. […] In 1942, Hitler decreed that the Finns, at least, were definitely “racially related Germanic neighboring peoples.” There is no indication, however, that this determination was based on new racial-scientific findings.

I’ve tried to find out more about when Hitler made the degree, but I can’t find him declaring such a thing in a speech or in a document.

[George L Gregory]

Until 1945 German encyclopaedias such as Brockhaus or Meyer continually described Finns as Mongolians. Friedrich Max Müller, who introduced to the world the theory of Aryan languages, declared Finno-Ugric languages “nomadic”. In 1939 German scholars were still arguing that because the Estonians were related to both Finns and Mongols they belonged predominantly to the East Baltic racial type. Nazi racial experts attributed vestiges of the Nordic race in Estonia to contacts with ethnic Germans and, to a lesser degree, Swedes.

To fight the Mongoloid theory on its own terms, in 1924 the Finnish Academy of Science initiated an extensive anthropometrical study. Two years later Rolf Nordenstreng produced a new racial type - the East Baltic type - which he used to bury the Mongoloid theory. The East Baltic race was placed among other “blond” European races; the Finns and Hungarians thus became “Europeans”. By losing “eastern” traits, Finns and Hungarians attempted to reclaim their place in Europe as well as to distance themselves culturally and politically from Russia. Simultaneously, Finns and Hungarians promoted Finno-Ugric solidarity as a way of strengthening their national identity.

Anton Weiss-Wendt, Rory Yeomans, Racial Science in Hitler's New Europe, 1938-1945

[Topspeed]

At the time when the Nazis came to power, they thought that Finns (and Hungarians) were not Europeans. Shortly after they came to power, the Civil Service Law was introduced and with the following definition of “Aryan” by Albert Gorter, another prominent ministry official:

The Finns and Hungarians belong to the Mongolian race; but it is hardly the intention of the law to treat them as non-Aryans.

Eric Ehrenreich wrote:

The “racial status” of Finns, Hungarians, and other Eastern Europeans, for example, was in constant flux during the Nazi era. […] In 1942, Hitler decreed that the Finns, at least, were definitely “racially related Germanic neighboring peoples.” There is no indication, however, that this determination was based on new racial-scientific findings.

I’ve tried to find out more about when Hitler made the degree, but I can’t find him declaring such a thing in a speech or in a document.

Yes there were racial studies made extensively in Sweden also...they measured the skulls of lappish people etc...to define that they are inferior etc. I think this kinda business was very common at those times. They had no DNA systems back then.

[Topspeed]

Hi Topspeed,

This is not a matter of opinion but of objective facts.

We all have an ability to judge things for ourselves, but we do not all have the necessary information and skills to do so constructively.

GLG has put some sourced facts in front of you. If you have nothing equivalent to contradict them, let's move on.

Cheers,

Sid

Yes I know, but I live here and as a army brat been moving up down to see all folks here. I may have seen a dozen of people that might have some mongolian looks...very short forehead and eyes wide apart ( but those are usually very strong people...like oxes ).

We all know now that all europeans have some degree on Neanderthal in them...I would say in Finland that figure could be higher..these are usually red haired and have a bit stubby noses. But many of them are bright and sharp like razor blades.