Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

[George L Gregory]

When and how did Hitler declare Finns to be Aryans? Was it by signing a document or during a speech? There doesn’t seem to be a lot of information about it.

[Topspeed]

When and how did Hitler declare Finns to be Aryans? Was it by signing a document or during a speech? There doesn’t seem to be a lot of information about it.

I don't think they ever talked about aryanism...rather how to end bolshevism.

Here is a finnish filmed movie about AH visit to Finland in 1942.

https://elavamuisti.fi/aikajana/hitler-suomessa

[Wessel]

Thanks for posting such an interesting film. The detailing is amazing!

[Seppo Koivisto]

When and how did Hitler declare Finns to be Aryans? Was it by signing a document or during a speech? There doesn’t seem to be a lot of information about it.

According to the book Children of foreign soldiers in Finland 1940-1948, Volume I, The children of German soldiers, pages 137,141, that in November 1942 Hitler saw that Finns form a Nordic state, belong to the Nordic people after they have heavily mixed with Germans and above all because of the brotherhood of arms. It is not clear if Finns were called Edelarier like the Japanese, but according to East German researcher Manfred Menger Finns were awarded the status of Germanen honoris causa, that could be awarded by Rassenforschungsamt or Rassenpolitisches Amt for economical or political reasons. As source it gives the book Menger, Manfred: Deutschland und Finnland im zweiten Weltkrieg. Genesis und
Scheitern einer Militärallianz. Berlin 1988.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_Aryan

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Topspeed,

A very clear piece of film. Thanks.

Apart from all the saluting and hand shaking, it is interesting to see the Finnish generals getting in so many last cigrattes before the non-smoking Hitler arrived. It is also interesting to watch the animation on Hitler's face even when in normal conversation and to see him confidently skip across planks over a ditch - not a normal feature of a state visit!

Cheers,

Sid.

[George L Gregory]

A bizarre situation appeared in relation to the recruitment of the battalion. Since, according to Nazi racial theories, the Finnish people were not pure Aryans, Berlin preferred candidates from a Swedish-speaking background. The Finnish recruitment offers seem to have paid little attention to this, since the number of Finno-Swedes among the recruits was only marginally higher than the national average.

Claes Johansen, Hitler's Nordic Ally?: Finland and the Total War 1939 - 1945, page 157.

David Stahel in his book Joining Hitler's Crusade on page 33 states pretty much the same thing.

I remember reading about how Finnish anthropologists tried to argue that Finns, Estonians and Hungarians were Europeans and not Mongolians.

[Peter89]

A bizarre situation appeared in relation to the recruitment of the battalion. Since, according to Nazi racial theories, the Finnish people were not pure Aryans, Berlin preferred candidates from a Swedish-speaking background. The Finnish recruitment offers seem to have paid little attention to this, since the number of Finno-Swedes among the recruits was only marginally higher than the national average.

Claes Johansen, Hitler's Nordic Ally?: Finland and the Total War 1939 - 1945, page 157.

David Stahel in his book Joining Hitler's Crusade on page 33 states pretty much the same thing.

I remember reading about how Finnish anthropologists tried to argue that Finns, Estonians and Hungarians were Europeans and not Mongolians.

One does not need to be an anthropologist to say that the Finnish and Hungarian people are not genetically related. This is obvious.

But this has nothing to do with anthropology or cultural anthropolgy; it has to do with linguistics. These people are not the same genetically, their culture - even their medieval ones - might raise the question if we could find at all two more different folk culture and cultural heritage in Europe. Probably the only commonality between the two is Christianity. These are all well-known facts, but without any further explanation, one might just look at a map and think about the impossible distance between the Carpathian Basin and the Gulf of Helsinki to understand this. Obviously, we can find more genetic and cultural similarities with their respective neighbours.

Linguistics, however, is a different matter. Although it is most likely, that today's Hungarians are not even genetically related to those who conquered the Carpathian Basin in the late IX. century, and even if some are, most of them are definately not, I'd like to double back to our OP and recall the "scientific argument" regarding the Finno-Ugric relationship.

As a born Hungarian, the lack of mutual interintelligibility is probably the single most important handicap that I had to overcome. In some sense, I was blind to 95% of the world before I learned to read / speak German, English and Russian. Of course, in the age of nationalism, when a small, but aspiring nation, which also delegated most of the local ruling class for hundreds of years, the Hungarians started to look for "milk-brothers" to spiritually counter the pan-Germanic and pan-Slavic nationalism. In a sense, this topic has been the most important intellectual debate for decades. (ie. we do not need to reinvent warm water, just look for the relevant sources)
As the debate went on, and the search for the relatives of the Hungarians (or to be more precise, the Magyars) continued, some very wild theories with little evidence turned up; some related Hungarians to the Japanese (there are obvious linguistical similarities, for which the Hungarians learn Japanese very efficiently - much more efficiently than, let's say, German or Slovak), some to the Turks, some to the Sumers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian ... ic_studies

The end of the debate was a total intellectual victory for the Finno-Ugrists. There is no doubt that the Finnish / Estonian and Hungarian languages are related to one another, and that the Mansi people and the Khanty people are even closer linguistical relatives.

[Topspeed]

A bizarre situation appeared in relation to the recruitment of the battalion. Since, according to Nazi racial theories, the Finnish people were not pure Aryans, Berlin preferred candidates from a Swedish-speaking background. The Finnish recruitment offers seem to have paid little attention to this, since the number of Finno-Swedes among the recruits was only marginally higher than the national average.

Claes Johansen, Hitler's Nordic Ally?: Finland and the Total War 1939 - 1945, page 157.

David Stahel in his book Joining Hitler's Crusade on page 33 states pretty much the same thing.

I remember reading about how Finnish anthropologists tried to argue that Finns, Estonians and Hungarians were Europeans and not Mongolians.

Don't mongolians live in Mongolia ?

[Topspeed]

A bizarre situation appeared in relation to the recruitment of the battalion. Since, according to Nazi racial theories, the Finnish people were not pure Aryans, Berlin preferred candidates from a Swedish-speaking background. The Finnish recruitment offers seem to have paid little attention to this, since the number of Finno-Swedes among the recruits was only marginally higher than the national average.

Claes Johansen, Hitler's Nordic Ally?: Finland and the Total War 1939 - 1945, page 157.

David Stahel in his book Joining Hitler's Crusade on page 33 states pretty much the same thing.

I remember reading about how Finnish anthropologists tried to argue that Finns, Estonians and Hungarians were Europeans and not Mongolians.

One does not need to be an anthropologist to say that the Finnish and Hungarian people are not genetically related. This is obvious.

But this has nothing to do with anthropology or cultural anthropolgy; it has to do with linguistics. These people are not the same genetically, their culture - even their medieval ones - might raise the question if we could find at all two more different folk culture and cultural heritage in Europe. Probably the only commonality between the two is Christianity. These are all well-known facts, but without any further explanation, one might just look at a map and think about the impossible distance between the Carpathian Basin and the Gulf of Helsinki to understand this. Obviously, we can find more genetic and cultural similarities with their respective neighbours.

Linguistics, however, is a different matter. Although it is most likely, that today's Hungarians are not even genetically related to those who conquered the Carpathian Basin in the late IX. century, and even if some are, most of them are definately not, I'd like to double back to our OP and recall the "scientific argument" regarding the Finno-Ugric relationship.

As a born Hungarian, the lack of mutual interintelligibility is probably the single most important handicap that I had to overcome. In some sense, I was blind to 95% of the world before I learned to read / speak German, English and Russian. Of course, in the age of nationalism, when a small, but aspiring nation, which also delegated most of the local ruling class for hundreds of years, the Hungarians started to look for "milk-brothers" to spiritually counter the pan-Germanic and pan-Slavic nationalism. In a sense, this topic has been the most important intellectual debate for decades. (ie. we do not need to reinvent warm water, just look for the relevant sources)
As the debate went on, and the search for the relatives of the Hungarians (or to be more precise, the Magyars) continued, some very wild theories with little evidence turned up; some related Hungarians to the Japanese (there are obvious linguistical similarities, for which the Hungarians learn Japanese very efficiently - much more efficiently than, let's say, German or Slovak), some to the Turks, some to the Sumers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian ... ic_studies

The end of the debate was a total intellectual victory for the Finno-Ugrists. There is no doubt that the Finnish / Estonian and Hungarian languages are related to one another, and that the Mansi people and the Khanty people are even closer linguistical relatives.

The Lapland people the Samis are related to Basque people of Portugal...so I figure finns may well have come here from center of Europe..some 10 000 years ago.

[Topspeed]

Thanks for posting such an interesting film. The detailing is amazing!

There are several videos about Hitler speaking in normal voice in that train car.

[Topspeed]

Hi Topspeed,

A very clear piece of film. Thanks.

Apart from all the saluting and hand shaking, it is interesting to see the Finnish generals getting in so many last cigrattes before the non-smoking Hitler arrived. It is also interesting to watch the animation on Hitler's face even when in normal conversation and to see him confidently skip across planks over a ditch - not a normal feature of a state visit!

Cheers,

Sid.

There are some really intelligent military leaders there...looking very sharp in the videos. There is another video of Mannerheim visiting AH in return in Germany in 1942.

Here: https://elavamuisti.fi/aikajana/suomen- ... erin-luona

If you could read the narrative...it is very revealing.

[Peter89]

A bizarre situation appeared in relation to the recruitment of the battalion. Since, according to Nazi racial theories, the Finnish people were not pure Aryans, Berlin preferred candidates from a Swedish-speaking background. The Finnish recruitment offers seem to have paid little attention to this, since the number of Finno-Swedes among the recruits was only marginally higher than the national average.

Claes Johansen, Hitler's Nordic Ally?: Finland and the Total War 1939 - 1945, page 157.

David Stahel in his book Joining Hitler's Crusade on page 33 states pretty much the same thing.

I remember reading about how Finnish anthropologists tried to argue that Finns, Estonians and Hungarians were Europeans and not Mongolians.

One does not need to be an anthropologist to say that the Finnish and Hungarian people are not genetically related. This is obvious.

But this has nothing to do with anthropology or cultural anthropolgy; it has to do with linguistics. These people are not the same genetically, their culture - even their medieval ones - might raise the question if we could find at all two more different folk culture and cultural heritage in Europe. Probably the only commonality between the two is Christianity. These are all well-known facts, but without any further explanation, one might just look at a map and think about the impossible distance between the Carpathian Basin and the Gulf of Helsinki to understand this. Obviously, we can find more genetic and cultural similarities with their respective neighbours.

Linguistics, however, is a different matter. Although it is most likely, that today's Hungarians are not even genetically related to those who conquered the Carpathian Basin in the late IX. century, and even if some are, most of them are definately not, I'd like to double back to our OP and recall the "scientific argument" regarding the Finno-Ugric relationship.

As a born Hungarian, the lack of mutual interintelligibility is probably the single most important handicap that I had to overcome. In some sense, I was blind to 95% of the world before I learned to read / speak German, English and Russian. Of course, in the age of nationalism, when a small, but aspiring nation, which also delegated most of the local ruling class for hundreds of years, the Hungarians started to look for "milk-brothers" to spiritually counter the pan-Germanic and pan-Slavic nationalism. In a sense, this topic has been the most important intellectual debate for decades. (ie. we do not need to reinvent warm water, just look for the relevant sources)
As the debate went on, and the search for the relatives of the Hungarians (or to be more precise, the Magyars) continued, some very wild theories with little evidence turned up; some related Hungarians to the Japanese (there are obvious linguistical similarities, for which the Hungarians learn Japanese very efficiently - much more efficiently than, let's say, German or Slovak), some to the Turks, some to the Sumers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian ... ic_studies

The end of the debate was a total intellectual victory for the Finno-Ugrists. There is no doubt that the Finnish / Estonian and Hungarian languages are related to one another, and that the Mansi people and the Khanty people are even closer linguistical relatives.

The Lapland people the Samis are related to Basque people of Portugal...so I figure finns may well have come here from center of Europe..some 10 000 years ago.

Every person, and every living being is related to one another on this planet. However, we are not talking about genetics here.

If you want to reanimate the academic debate about the relationship between the Uralic languages, I am sure that the Finno-Ugrian departments of the universities will appreciate your interest in many countries over Europe.

In Hungary:
https://www.btk.elte.hu/szervezetek/122 ... or-tanszek
http://arts.u-szeged.hu/finnugor

or in Austria:
https://finno-ugristik.univie.ac.at/hu/

or in Germany:
https://www.uni-goettingen.de/en/37127.html
https://fid.finnug.de/en/

or in Finland:
https://www.helsinki.fi/en/faculty-arts ... ge-studies
https://www.utu.fi/en/university/facult ... -languages

[Topspeed]

Yes Peter....in afore mentioned post is a finnish officer Aladar Paasonen whose mom was hungarian. At 07:11 of the video: https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alad%C3%A1r_Paasonen

He is very interesting as he visited Canaris later in 1942 and mentioned to him that in his opinion this war is not going to end well for Germany.....and to his surprise Canaris was of the same opinion.

Both were the head of the army intelligence on their nations.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris

[George L Gregory]

A bizarre situation appeared in relation to the recruitment of the battalion. Since, according to Nazi racial theories, the Finnish people were not pure Aryans, Berlin preferred candidates from a Swedish-speaking background. The Finnish recruitment offers seem to have paid little attention to this, since the number of Finno-Swedes among the recruits was only marginally higher than the national average.

Claes Johansen, Hitler's Nordic Ally?: Finland and the Total War 1939 - 1945, page 157.

David Stahel in his book Joining Hitler's Crusade on page 33 states pretty much the same thing.

I remember reading about how Finnish anthropologists tried to argue that Finns, Estonians and Hungarians were Europeans and not Mongolians.

Don't mongolians live in Mongolia ?

Erm, have you never heard of historical migration and historical invasions?

[Harri]

Apart from all the saluting and hand shaking, it is interesting to see the Finnish generals getting in so many last cigrattes before the non-smoking Hitler arrived. It is also interesting to watch the animation on Hitler's face even when in normal conversation and to see him confidently skip across planks over a ditch - not a normal feature of a state visit

Actually Field Marshall Mannerheim lighted up his cigar after the meal and blowed the smoke directly to Hitler's face. Surprisingly Hitler didn't show any offense or something else special. Although Hitler was known non-drinking and smoking person he did drink beer (which was not counted alcohol drink, or...? :roll: ).

The most interesting part are the Hitler's (self-)talkings. These were only briefly commented by the Finnish talkers for example Mannerheim (and I think also Gen. Heinrichs?)