Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

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George L Gregory
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by George L Gregory » 31 Dec 2021 11:55

Gorque wrote:
31 Dec 2021 04:40
George L Gregory wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:32
Gorque wrote:
25 Dec 2021 13:04
Whoa, what?!? Aktion T4 was authorized by a single mad man, AH.
Hitler wasn’t a madman. That’s what a lot of people say or write to try to explain the awful things he did. It really wasn’t the case at all. On the contrary, he was a very intelligent man who was extremely charismatic and those two things combined together enabled him to come to power legally and start a war that ultimately became a world war and resulted in the deaths of millions of soldiers, innocent civilians, etc, as well as being the man behind the genocide of millions of innocent Jews and other people of all ages including children and old people, men and women, etc.
I beg to, respectfully, disagree. Only a madman, would subject his nation in the final years of war to the aerial punishment the Germany endured in 1944-1945; to the malnourishment he subjected the Germans to, to the planned destruction of German bridges and road;, as a punishment to the German people for have lost the war for him; for the forced death marches of the prisoners of the various detention camps, etc, etc.

But lets be fair and not look at the last years of the conflict where the effects of Dr. Morell's injected cocktails were having their mind-altering effects.

While in Landsberg, A.H., he penned the delusional, self-promoting, nonsensical drivel, Mein Kampf ; realized that anti-semitism was not the ticket to the Chancellorship and modified his oratory accordingly to suit his audience; Achieved the Chancellorship through pugnacious obstinance. When he achieved the Chancellorship, moved quickly against his opposition through judicial and extra-judicial means. Crushed his opposition through either imprisonment or protective custody. Embarked upon a unsustainable rearmament program. Murdered at least six million non-combatants who, as a result of his conquests, were under his charge; Engaged in wars of aggression against Germany's immediate neighbors which in the end resulted in the deaths of twenty million Germans and perhaps, at least 80 non-Germans.

I'd say that would, IMHO, qualify A.H. as a madman. :D
If you’re using the term ‘madman’ to refer to someone who is foolish and reckless then of course I highly doubt many people would disagree with that statement, but if you’re using it to refer to someone who is mentally I’ll then I strongly disagree with using it to describe Adolf Hitler because there’s no evidence to support the idea that he was mentally ill.

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Gorque
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by Gorque » 31 Dec 2021 15:22

Hi George L Gregory:

As Sid mentioned earlier, he was a calculating opportunist early on, with which I agreed. Perhaps I should amend my earlier statement to reflect that agreement. :) Foolish and reckless I think pertains to certain aspects of his behavior after say, September 1939. Feel free to disagree and please do chime in with your thoughts.

I agree with your description of him being charismatic, almost having hypnotic qualities.

As to when he became delusional, 1945 for sure. 1944 perhaps?

All the best.

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by Sid Guttridge » 31 Dec 2021 15:33

Hi Gorque,

While I would agree that Hitler grew increasingly reckless after September 1939, the fact that he was spectacularly successful for two years rather undermines the foolishness accusation. Poor decision making began to compound itself thereafter but I suspect he only really began losing the plot some time after mid 1944. About half of all German dead (Germans being the only people important to Hitler) occurred after that date. In effect, they largely died to give him and his cronies a few extra months of power and life. Their sacrifice changed outcomes not at all. Self interest? Madness? Not good for Germans either way.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Gorque
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by Gorque » 31 Dec 2021 15:43

Hi Sid:

Some well made points. I think the foolish part can be pinned on the DoW with the United States. I know he was hoping to entice the Japanese to engage the Soviets....

Best regards,

George L Gregory
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by George L Gregory » 31 Dec 2021 19:43

Well, the German historian Joachim Fest at the start of his biography of Adolf Hitler titled simply Hitler asked readers the question:
The course of this life, and the pattern of events themselves, will throw light upon the whole matter. Yet here we may well ask ourselves a few pertinent questions. If Hitler had succumbed to an assassinationn or an accident at the end of 1938, few would hesistate to call him one of the greatest of German statesmen, the consummator of Germany's history. The aggressive speeches and Mein Kampf, the anti-Semitism and the design for world dominion, would presumably have fallen into oblivion, dismissed as the man's youthful fantasies, and only occasionally would critics remind an irrated nation of them. Six and one-half years separated Hitler from such renown. Granted, only premature death could have given him that, for by nature he was headed toward destruction and did not make an exception of himself. Can we call him great?
Joachim Fest, Hitler, page 5.

No one in 1933 could have for certain predicted how the Third Reich was going to end. Hitler’s antisemitism wasn’t present during his campaigns in the early 1930s before he came to power and during his first speech as Chancellor there wasn’t a single mention of the so-called Jewish Question. Even as late as 1940 Adolf Hitler agreed to Heinrich Himmler’s desire that the Jewish Question would be solved by forcefully emigrating Jews under Nazi rule to some colony in Africa as well as the claim that any talk of the extermination of a group of people was “un-German” but was instead “Bolshevik”.

Alan Bullock during the documentary The Fatal Attraction of Adolf Hitler states that people try their hardest to try and explain why so many Germans followed Hitler but it’s there, right there, in front of you… he was special and people like him don’t come around too often, but his charisma attracted even opponents of Nazi ideology.

IIRC, Ian Kershaw wrote about German Jews attending Nazi rallies because of the atmospheres at them. I’ll try and find the exact quote (unless someone else can beat me to it).

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by wm » 01 Jan 2022 23:15

ljadw wrote:
30 Dec 2021 18:16
The fact is that the horrible things Morel did were legal when he did them and that the regime who asks his extradition did not exist when Morel committed his crimes .
Morel killed innocent people for fun and beat others up to a pulp with a stool leg for more fun.
I hope that is not legal in your country.

Extradition is decided by Israeli courts according to bilateral agreements and Israeli laws.
That Kim could have asked for extradition according to that is beyond absurd.

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 02 Jan 2022 06:40

wm wrote:
01 Jan 2022 23:15
ljadw wrote:
30 Dec 2021 18:16
The fact is that the horrible things Morel did were legal when he did them and that the regime who asks his extradition did not exist when Morel committed his crimes .
Morel killed innocent people for fun and beat others up to a pulp with a stool leg for more fun.
I hope that is not legal in your country.

NOW it is not legal in Belgium, but there were periods in the past when it was legal .

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by Gorque » 02 Jan 2022 19:26

Regarding Białystok:
The official incorporation of Białystok, which until the autumn of 1939 belonged to Poland but had been the object of German annexation plans even during the First World War, was likewise adjourned.
(DRZW, Vol V/I, part 1, p 172)

IOW: annexation de facto

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Gorque
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by Gorque » 02 Jan 2022 19:45

Regarding Grodno:
The precise delineation of the frontiers, after incorporation of the area around Grodno, formerly part of the Reich Commissariat Eastland [Ostland], had been made the duty of the Reich ministers of the interior and of the occupied eastern territories; it dragged on until the end of 1941. Mainly out of consideration for Göring, the territory was further extended to the south, to enable him to create a Reich hunting-grounds in the primeval forest of Białowieźa (Bialowies). As early as July 1941 the population had been ordered to leave their villages, which were then set alight. The Reich ministry of the interior recommended that Białystok should be treated as though it had already been incorporated in the province of East Prussia.

Thus, not only the territories already incorporated, but increasingly also those under civil administration heads, were treated as parts of the Reich. The CdZ's, detached from the military authorities since the summer of 1940, thus became instruments of de facto annexation. Their principal task, assigned to them by Hitler, was to implement the Germanization of their territories over a period of roughly ten years, if possible untrammelled by any legal provisions.
(DRZW, Vol V/I, part 1, pp 173-4)

Another area only annexed de facto

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 02 Jan 2022 22:49

Gorque wrote:
02 Jan 2022 19:26
Regarding Białystok:
The official incorporation of Białystok, which until the autumn of 1939 belonged to Poland but had been the object of German annexation plans even during the First World War, was likewise adjourned.
(DRZW, Vol V/I, part 1, p 172)

IOW: annexation de facto
NO :that the official incorporation of Bialystok was adjourned,does not mean annexation de facto : it was never a choice between annexation de jure or annexation de facto .

ljadw
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 02 Jan 2022 22:50

Gorque wrote:
02 Jan 2022 19:45
Regarding Grodno:
The precise delineation of the frontiers, after incorporation of the area around Grodno, formerly part of the Reich Commissariat Eastland [Ostland], had been made the duty of the Reich ministers of the interior and of the occupied eastern territories; it dragged on until the end of 1941. Mainly out of consideration for Göring, the territory was further extended to the south, to enable him to create a Reich hunting-grounds in the primeval forest of Białowieźa (Bialowies). As early as July 1941 the population had been ordered to leave their villages, which were then set alight. The Reich ministry of the interior recommended that Białystok should be treated as though it had already been incorporated in the province of East Prussia.

Thus, not only the territories already incorporated, but increasingly also those under civil administration heads, were treated as parts of the Reich. The CdZ's, detached from the military authorities since the summer of 1940, thus became instruments of de facto annexation. Their principal task, assigned to them by Hitler, was to implement the Germanization of their territories over a period of roughly ten years, if possible untrammelled by any legal provisions.
(DRZW, Vol V/I, part 1, pp 173-4)

Another area only annexed de facto
NO : it was never a choice between de facto or de jure .

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by Frischluft » 09 Jan 2022 22:47

George L Gregory wrote:
31 Dec 2021 19:43
IIRC, Ian Kershaw wrote about German Jews attending Nazi rallies because of the atmospheres at them. I’ll try and find the exact quote (unless someone else can beat me to it).
This was surely the case. According to Golo Mann, even a Jewish friend of his was persuaded by Hitler's rhetoric.
In his memoirs, the historian Golo Mann described the impression a Hitler speech made on him as a 19-year-old student in the autumn of 1928. 'I had to steel myself against the energy and persuasive force of the speaker', Mann wrote. 'A Jewish friend of mine, whom I had brought along, was unable to resist. "He's right," he whispered in my ear. How many times had I heard this phrase "He's right" uttered by listeners from whom I would have least expected it?'
Ullrich, Volker (2016). Hitler: Ascent 1889–1939. Translated from the German by Jefferson Chase. London: The Bodley Head. p. 385.

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by George L Gregory » 31 Jan 2022 15:53

Frischluft wrote:
09 Jan 2022 22:47
This was surely the case. According to Golo Mann, even a Jewish friend of his was persuaded by Hitler's rhetoric.
It's interesting to read what historians write or speak about Adolf Hitler's charisma and rhetoric. Some people who listened to Hitler thought he was barking mad, but I think even people who don't speak German can see (by watching videos) and listen to Hitler's passion and ability to persuade the masses to his beliefs. Without Hitler it's unlikely that the Nazi Party would have ever gained such widespread publicity approval, even though there were other decent speakers e.g. Joseph Goebbels.

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by NickA » 03 Feb 2022 09:21

ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:06
Before 2003 18000 people were yearly euthanized in Britain ... Churchill proposed the compulsory sterilization of 120000 persons
I think if you're going to provide precise figures like this you should provide references for them.

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 03 Feb 2022 16:14

Gorque wrote:
31 Dec 2021 15:43
Hi Sid:

Some well made points. I think the foolish part can be pinned on the DoW with the United States. I know he was hoping to entice the Japanese to engage the Soviets....

Best regards,
NO :at the end of the Barbarossa Weisung, Hitler forbade explicitly to inform Japan about the Barbarossa Weisung .

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