Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

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ljadw
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 03 Feb 2022 16:39

NickA wrote:
03 Feb 2022 09:21
ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:06
Before 2003 18000 people were yearly euthanized in Britain ... Churchill proposed the compulsory sterilization of 120000 persons
I think if you're going to provide precise figures like this you should provide references for them.
Source :International Churchill Society :Churchill and Eugenics .
Before and after WW 1,Eugenics was fashion in Britain, and Churchill was a prominent supporter of Eugenics .
Eugenics proposed to eliminate the ''feeble-minded '' by preventing their procreation .
And the following is from this source :
When he was Home Secretary he proposed to put in practice the ''Indiana Law ''(=sterilization ) and the prevention of marriage of the ''feeble-minded ''.
He said that there were at least 120000 feeble-minded who should be segregated so that their cure would die with him .
But, concerned by the high cost of forced segregation,he preferred compulsory sterilization to confinement .

NickA
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by NickA » 03 Feb 2022 18:32

ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:06
Churchill proposed the compulsory sterilization of 120000 persons ...
Source :International Churchill Society :Churchill and Eugenics wrote: Before and after WW 1,Eugenics was fashion in Britain, and Churchill was a prominent supporter of Eugenics . Eugenics proposed to eliminate the ''feeble-minded '' by preventing their procreation . And the following is from this source : When he was Home Secretary he proposed to put in practice the ''Indiana Law ''(=sterilization ) and the prevention of marriage of the ''feeble-minded ''. He said that there were at least 120000 feeble-minded who should be segregated so that their cure would die with him . But, concerned by the high cost of forced segregation,he preferred compulsory sterilization to confinement .
OK, I'll accept that. Except you've not provided any proper reference, location of that source. And I get no ghits for "When he was Home Secretary he proposed to put in practice".
ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:06
Before 2003 18000 people were yearly euthanized in Britain
You've provided no reference of any kind for that.

<editted to add this from a different posting of yours>
ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 05:52
Slavery and capital punishment in the Middle Ages were generally accepted, thus we should not wast our time with useless condemnations .
The Holocaust, OTOH,was universally condemned by those who lived during the Holocaust .
The Holocaust was barely mentioned while it was going on. When concerned people did try to bring it up, the Zionists made every effort to cover up what was happening:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_Kook wrote:Franklin Roosevelt avoided them entirely ... influenced by the advice of some of his Jewish aides and several prominent American Jewish spokespeople (including Dr. Stephen Wise who told him "Mr. President, you wouldn't want to be associated with these people") ... claimed that the marchers, many of whom were both Orthodox as well as recent immigrants (or first-generation Americans) were not representative of American Jewry.
The organising of that march is credibly claimed by this man:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_Kook wrote:Hillel Kook (Hebrew: הלל קוק, 24 July 1915 –18 August 2001), also known as Peter Bergson (Hebrew: פיטר ברגסון), was a Revisionist Zionist activist and politician.

Kook led the Irgun's efforts in the United States during World War II to promote Zionism and mainly to save the abandoned Jews of Europe during the Holocaust.

... One of the Committee's more memorable activities was a protest Kook organized known as the Rabbis' march. The protest took place in Washington, D.C. on October 6, 1943 ... The march garnered much media attention, much of it focused on what was seen as the cold and insulting dismissal of many important community leaders ... Years later, Rabbi Soloveitchik, in recorded lectures, would bemoan the betrayal of the Rabbis' mission by Stephen Wise, who dismissed them as a group of Orthodox rabbis who didn't represent anyone.[10] A week later, Senator William Warren Barbour (R; New Jersey), one of a handful of politicians who met with the rabbis on the steps of the US Capitol, proposed legislation that would have allowed as many as 100,000 victims of the Holocaust to emigrate temporarily to the United States ... failed to pass.

... Kook and his followers were opposed by American Zionist and progressive Jewish organizations. In December 1943, the American Jewish Conference launched a public attack against the Bergsonites in an attempt to derail support for the resolution.[5] The British embassy and several American Zionist groups, including the American Jewish Committee and other political opponents sought to have Kook deported or drafted.[6] They encouraged the IRS to investigate the Bergson Group's finances in an attempt to discredit them, hoping to find misappropriation, or at least careless bookkeeping, of the large amount of funds the groups handled. The United States IRS found no financial irregularities.[7] Among those trying to stop the Bergson Group's rescue activities were Jewish Congressman Blum and leaders of the World Jewish Congress: Stephen Wise, Nahum Goldmann. A State Department protocol shows Goldmann telling the State Department that Hillel Kook did not represent organized Jewry, and suggested either deporting him or drafting him for the war effort.[8]
You claimed that the Holocaust was universally condemned! The only people condemned and threatened were those who tried to talk about it!

And of course, the Holocaust didn't even have a name in English until Meryl Streep in 1978!

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 03 Feb 2022 19:55

About the number of euthanasia in Britain :
The Scotsman from 29 September 2004
Title : UK euthanasia deaths 20000 a year,claims leading expert .
Dr Hazel Biggs calculates that at least 18000 terminally ill people a year die this way .

ljadw
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 03 Feb 2022 20:04

I said and I stick to what I said that those who lived when the Holocaust happened condemned it . Even years after the fact. Even today the Holocaust is still remembered : Holocaust Day in Britain in 2022 was 27 January .
But there was no Slavery Day in Britain in the Middle Ages, no Capital Punishment Day in France .
Thus, it is totally wrong to equalize the Middle Age slavery,torture, capital punishment with the Holocaust .

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 03 Feb 2022 20:18

NickA wrote:
03 Feb 2022 18:32



<editted to add this from a different posting of yours>
ljadw wrote:
26 Dec 2021 05:52
Slavery and capital punishment in the Middle Ages were generally accepted, thus we should not wast our time with useless condemnations .
The Holocaust, OTOH,was universally condemned by those who lived during the Holocaust .
The Holocaust was barely mentioned while it was going on. When concerned people did try to bring it up, the Zionists made every effort to cover up what was happening:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_Kook wrote:Franklin Roosevelt avoided them entirely ... influenced by the advice of some of his Jewish aides and several prominent American Jewish spokespeople (including Dr. Stephen Wise who told him "Mr. President, you wouldn't want to be associated with these people") ... claimed that the marchers, many of whom were both Orthodox as well as recent immigrants (or first-generation Americans) were not representative of American Jewry.
The organising of that march is credibly claimed by this man:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_Kook wrote:Hillel Kook (Hebrew: הלל קוק, 24 July 1915 –18 August 2001), also known as Peter Bergson (Hebrew: פיטר ברגסון), was a Revisionist Zionist activist and politician.

Kook led the Irgun's efforts in the United States during World War II to promote Zionism and mainly to save the abandoned Jews of Europe during the Holocaust.

... One of the Committee's more memorable activities was a protest Kook organized known as the Rabbis' march. The protest took place in Washington, D.C. on October 6, 1943 ... The march garnered much media attention, much of it focused on what was seen as the cold and insulting dismissal of many important community leaders ... Years later, Rabbi Soloveitchik, in recorded lectures, would bemoan the betrayal of the Rabbis' mission by Stephen Wise, who dismissed them as a group of Orthodox rabbis who didn't represent anyone.[10] A week later, Senator William Warren Barbour (R; New Jersey), one of a handful of politicians who met with the rabbis on the steps of the US Capitol, proposed legislation that would have allowed as many as 100,000 victims of the Holocaust to emigrate temporarily to the United States ... failed to pass.

... Kook and his followers were opposed by American Zionist and progressive Jewish organizations. In December 1943, the American Jewish Conference launched a public attack against the Bergsonites in an attempt to derail support for the resolution.[5] The British embassy and several American Zionist groups, including the American Jewish Committee and other political opponents sought to have Kook deported or drafted.[6] They encouraged the IRS to investigate the Bergson Group's finances in an attempt to discredit them, hoping to find misappropriation, or at least careless bookkeeping, of the large amount of funds the groups handled. The United States IRS found no financial irregularities.[7] Among those trying to stop the Bergson Group's rescue activities were Jewish Congressman Blum and leaders of the World Jewish Congress: Stephen Wise, Nahum Goldmann. A State Department protocol shows Goldmann telling the State Department that Hillel Kook did not represent organized Jewry, and suggested either deporting him or drafting him for the war effort.[8]
You claimed that the Holocaust was universally condemned! The only people condemned and threatened were those who tried to talk about it!

And of course, the Holocaust didn't even have a name in English until Meryl Streep in 1978!
I did not say that the Holocaust was condemned while it was going on , but that those who lived during the Holocaust did condemn it .Those who lived when the Jews were persecuted in the Middle Ages, did not condemn the persecution.
That FDR disliked Jews is a fact ,but here irrelevant .
About Stephen Wise and also the NYT (which hided the Holocaust ) : what they said was wrong : there was and is today also no organized Jewry in the USA .Most Jewish Americans do not consider themselves as Jewish .
And they attacked Kook because he was a rival .

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by NickA » 03 Feb 2022 20:21

George L Gregory wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:32
Hitler wasn’t a madman. That’s what a lot of people say or write to try to explain the awful things he did. It really wasn’t the case at all. On the contrary, he was a very intelligent man who was extremely charismatic
Disputing what you've said would amount to a serious distortion of the historical record. People doing so risk a very serious failure to learn the lessons and stop worse things happening next.
George L Gregory wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:32
and those two things combined together enabled him to come to power legally and start a war that ultimately became a world war and resulted in the deaths of millions of soldiers, innocent civilians, etc as well as being the man behind the genocide of millions of innocent Jews and other people of all ages including children and old people, men and women, etc.
I want to know more about Polish provocation of Germany between the wars. And, in particular, how much of that provocation was incited by people who wanted a really big war (there is one standout candidate for that position!). And how much backing there was for the extermination of the German people, the unofficial war aim published in March 1941 and very nearly repeated in September 1944.

NickA
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by NickA » 03 Feb 2022 20:49

My words are golden and all my posts are full of good information.

But please don't quote the whole thing back to me, with only brief mention of your ideas at the end. It's bad enough making me scroll back through what I've written, others are not interested in our threadlet, they want to get past as quick as possible to find the other threadlets, we should respect that.
ljadw wrote:
03 Feb 2022 19:55
About the number of euthanasia in Britain : The Scotsman from 29 September 2004 Title : UK euthanasia deaths 20000 a year,claims leading expert . Dr Hazel Biggs calculates that at least 18000 terminally ill people a year die this way.
You're not quoting properly (hence, I don't know there's a message there for me) and you don't provide citations.
ljadw wrote:
03 Feb 2022 19:55
I said and I stick to what I said that those who lived when the Holocaust happened condemned it .
You've no citation for that because it didn't happen. Holocaust survivors were ignored almost everywhere and treated (still are) like dirt in Israel.

There are very few books from the period immediately after the war - some of them are pornographic, some of them of dubious authenticity, Anne Frank is true - but says nothing about the Holocaust.
ljadw wrote:
03 Feb 2022 19:55
Even years after the fact. Even today the Holocaust is still remembered
I don't know why you say "still remembered" - I hear of it at least every week.
ljadw wrote:
03 Feb 2022 19:55
there was no Slavery Day in Britain in the Middle Ages
Opposition to slavery was very much part of British society and education while it was going on. It took only a few years from the campaign reaching the House of Commons for it to become law. The British Navy was then sent out (ie our cost, in money and lives) to stop the trade.

However, once we'd ended it, we didn't obsess about it the way we are doing over the Holocaust. The Holocaust could simply be a side-note, since the perpetrators were massively punished. The importance of the Holocaust is that fighting it made the legal position is clear - don't over-run borders, don't massacre civilians and don't persecute minorities.

You don't see millions of people (chosen for being Jewish or Christian or Muslim or Buddhist) beaten from their homes, tossed into a ghetto, walled in and shot at now do you?

You don't see barbed wire surrounding concentration camps, Christians and Muslims unable to escape, anywhere in the world, now do you?

ljadw
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 04 Feb 2022 07:41

British slave trade existed from 1562 to 1807 .And slavery in Britain itself existed til 1800 .

ljadw
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 04 Feb 2022 07:44

NickA wrote:
03 Feb 2022 20:21
George L Gregory wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:32
Hitler wasn’t a madman. That’s what a lot of people say or write to try to explain the awful things he did. It really wasn’t the case at all. On the contrary, he was a very intelligent man who was extremely charismatic
Disputing what you've said would amount to a serious distortion of the historical record. People doing so risk a very serious failure to learn the lessons and stop worse things happening next.
George L Gregory wrote:
26 Dec 2021 17:32
and those two things combined together enabled him to come to power legally and start a war that ultimately became a world war and resulted in the deaths of millions of soldiers, innocent civilians, etc as well as being the man behind the genocide of millions of innocent Jews and other people of all ages including children and old people, men and women, etc.
I want to know more about Polish provocation of Germany between the wars. And, in particular, how much of that provocation was incited by people who wanted a really big war (there is one standout candidate for that position!). And how much backing there was for the extermination of the German people, the unofficial war aim published in March 1941 and very nearly repeated in September 1944.
Who is this standout candidate ?

NickA
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by NickA » 04 Feb 2022 16:26

My words are golden and all my posts are full of good information.

But please don't quote the whole thing back to me, with none of your own ideas attached.

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by George L Gregory » 04 Feb 2022 18:19

NickA wrote:
03 Feb 2022 20:21
I want to know more about Polish provocation of Germany between the wars. And, in particular, how much of that provocation was incited by people who wanted a really big war (there is one standout candidate for that position!). And how much backing there was for the extermination of the German people, the unofficial war aim published in March 1941 and very nearly repeated in September 1944.
There's a fake quote attributed to Edward Rydz-Śmigły that is rampant amongst neo-Nazi websites which claims that he said:
Poland wants war with Germany and Germany will not be able to avoid it even if she wants to.
The source given is the 6 August 1939 in the Daily Mail.

One big problem for the Nazi fanboys - the 6 August 1939 was a Sunday and there was no Daily Mail printed on a Sunday until 1982. :lol:

It was brought up on this forum over 10 years ago.

viewtopic.php?t=179570

Another thing that the neo-Nazis and other far-right nutters like to do is claim that the massacres in Bromberg which is also known as Bloody Sunday 1939 (Der Bromberger Blutsonntag) happened prior to WW2 (before 1 September 1939) when in fact it happened after the war between 3-4 September 1939. They also ignore the reasons behind the massacres and they also like to inflate the numbers which is what the Nazis did in propaganda too.

Were some Poles hostile towards Germans during the interwar years? Of course! Were some Germans hostile to the Poles during the interwar years? Of course! But, as far as I know, there was no significant desire for war between the two countries prior to the late 1930s when Hitler couldn't get his own way and his so-called offers were meaningless.

The far-right mob also ignore the historical hostility between Germany and Poland... they seem to be totally ignorant of the Partitions of Poland, etc.

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by Cantankerous » 07 Feb 2022 02:49

George L Gregory wrote:
11 Dec 2021 19:37
My Deputies, Men of the First Greater German Reichstag! As I conclude my explanations today, the years of struggle and fulfillment lying behind us now pass once more before my mind’s eye. To many these meant the sense and purpose of their entire existence. We know that greater things cannot be granted to our Volk and our own lives. Without shedding a drop of blood, we succeeded in raising up this great Reich of the German Volk.

[…]

We may now consider this process of the formation of the German nation as having reached its conclusion. The creation of the Greater German Reich represents the culmination of our Volk’s thousand-year struggle for existence.
https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Adolf_ ... uary_1939)

Since Hitler declared that the Greater German Reich had “reached its conclusion”, why did he want to annex more territory?
Since Hitler cheated on the Munich Pact by annexing the remainder of Czechoslovakia despite having promised to respect Czechoslovak sovereignty once he annexed the Sudetenland, it could be prudent to say that Hitler regarded the annexation of Austria and the Sudetenland as signifying the climax of the creation of a Greater Germany unifying his country of birth with Germany (bear in mind that Austria-Hungary was a multi-ethnic country when Hitler was born, breaking up at the end of World War I) because Hitler's Mein Kampf made clear that if all Slavic peoples in eastern Europe did not submit to the whims of the Aryan race, then they would be exterminated.

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by NickA » 07 Feb 2022 04:41

George L Gregory wrote:
04 Feb 2022 18:19
NickA wrote:
03 Feb 2022 20:21
I want to know more about Polish provocation of Germany between the wars. And, in particular, how much of that provocation was incited by people who wanted a really big war (there is one standout candidate for that position!). And how much backing there was for the extermination of the German people, the unofficial war aim published in March 1941 and very nearly repeated in September 1944.
One big problem for the Nazi fanboys - the 6 August 1939 was a Sunday and there was no Daily Mail printed on a Sunday until 1982. :lol: It was brought up on this forum over 10 years ago. viewtopic.php?t=179570 ... Were some Poles hostile towards Germans during the interwar years? Of course! Were some Germans hostile to the Poles during the interwar years? Of course! But, as far as I know, there was no significant desire for war between the two countries prior to the late 1930s when Hitler couldn't get his own way and his so-called offers were meaningless. The far-right mob also ignore the historical hostility between Germany and Poland... they seem to be totally ignorant of the Partitions of Poland, etc.
All very fine - perhaps some big lies have been told. But we know that Poland was engaged in a considerable and extraordinarily provocative ethnic cleansing of German-speakers, most of them been in place for 100s of years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bydgoszcz#History wrote:In 1910 the city [Bromberg] had 57,700 inhabitants of which 84 percent were Germans and 16 percent Poles. In 1919 Bromberg was assigned to Poland by the Paris Peace Conference and the Versailles Treaty. ... The local populace were required to acquire Polish citizenship or leave the country. This led to a steady and significant decline of ethnic Germans, whose number within the town decreased from 74,292 in 1910 to 11,016 in 1926 and from 31,212 to 13,281 within the district.[9] In 1938 it was made part of the Pomeranian Voivodeship.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's an ethnic cleansing, 85% in 7(?) years (1919 - 1926) in the "town" and 57% in "district". We know what followed 60% forced emigration of Jews from Germany in 6 years (1933 to 1939) - Poland was very far along this track, with the very important German outlier of Danzig also being ethnically cleansed. I don't know of Germans and Germany doing anything like that until the expulsion of (alleged illegally immigrated post-1919) Jewish Polish citizens in November 1938.

And its alleged that these severe Polish provocations were even more serious than that, they extended into Germany:
G.H. Ohio, USA wrote:"I lived in Germany during the 1980's when many people who lived during the war were still alive. I sought out anyone who lived near Poland in 1939 and was lucky enough to meet several people. One was a customs official who said it was so bad on the border they were armed and also had grenades in their office ready for attacks.
Another told me his farm animals were often stolen by Polish (Jewish?) terrorists. Another told of his niece being raped by a Pole (Jew?) who crossed the border. He told me in 1940 they caught the man and showed me a copy of the death order signed by Heydrich, in which he ordered the man put to death.
This is just one of many stories told to me by German civilians who witnessed these border incursions just like had happened in 1919-1928. One thing many people fail to see is that Poland openly attacked Germany right after World War I, which led to many border battles. Once Germany started pressing Poland to work out a solution to the corridor, the attacks started again. And one thing that is clear to me is that Germany did not make up these attacks."
Clearly, something was going on - nationally and culturally and militarily and economically, Poland was provoking Germany to some small or great extent. Our history is deeply flawed if we ignore what pressures acted on Hitler and the Germans.

I'm participating here to try and discover, in part, what more is known about these very important factors before 1939. If we really forced WW2 on the world by partitioning Germany, it would be very foolish of us to try to force the same thing on Russia. Especially since this will look like a pincer momvent on China.

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 07 Feb 2022 07:38

The decrease of the number of Germans in Bromberg does not prove an ethnic cleansing ,as it is possible ( or even probable ) that most Germans left voluntarily : a lot of them were officials for whom there was no longer any place in Poland .

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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by George L Gregory » 07 Feb 2022 08:38

Cantankerous wrote:
07 Feb 2022 02:49
Hitler's Mein Kampf made clear that if all Slavic peoples in eastern Europe did not submit to the whims of the Aryan race, then they would be exterminated.
Please post the quote from Mein Kampf which you think shows that it made clear that the Slavs would be exterminated if they "did not submit to the whims" of the so-called Aryan race.

AFAIK, In Mein Kampf Hitler never defined which peoples belonged to the "Aryan race".

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