Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
Ecam
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by Ecam » 14 Feb 2022 05:37

Stop asking stupid questions over and over again.
Can’t quite remember where I first saw this, but I believe it to be sound advice.

NickA
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by NickA » 15 Feb 2022 07:42

George L Gregory wrote:
13 Feb 2022 12:49
You insult Wikipedia, but you have no problem quoting from it.
You seem to have no idea of how to make an argument - throwing out dubious allegations with no reference atall, let alone ones that should be familiar and acceptable to me.

The Wikipedia is a heavily western-biased source which nevertheless proves some of my major points. Edwin Black was (is?) a passionate Zionist. If he says 800,000 Germans were starved to death without a war then the only mystery is why you don't know of it. The rest of your spiel is insulting nonsense.

Only one thing to add. The map I posted so strongly indicating my claim about the Madagascar Plan indeed came from the "JewishPress" - its here - https://www.jewishpress.com/wp-content/ ... ascar..jpg

So that's at least the third "western-friendly" and reasonably convincing citation in my message. (Another one if you'd looked up Rotfront and checked who the Weimar Republic blamed for the violence).

Meanwhile you seem to have nothing for your assertions. Its laughable to suppose I'll learn anything from you about the Poland Partition or the Polish people.

George L Gregory
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by George L Gregory » 15 Feb 2022 10:08

@NickA

I’m sure that I’m not the only one who is reading this thread who is still waiting for your source where you found the “G.H” quote that you have quoted a couple of times.

Cite your reference. Name the book and the page number. Name the author’s source.

Don’t think you can keep avoiding it. This forum deals with facts and not alternative history, denial, revisionism, etc.

Your reply to why historians and academics haven’t quoted it was:
80 years of occupation of Germany (forbidden again just in the last week to connect to a desperately needed and almost completed gas pipe-line!) has stamped out every effort to collect and publish these kinds of stories.
Well do spill the beans NickA… who is/was G.H from Ohio, USA? Where and when did he say the alleged quote? Where did he get his information from exactly?

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=261273&start=165#p2393367

Your spurious claims are honestly laughable. Your defence of the Nazis is pathetic.

Your initial claim about the Madagascar Plan was:
I've proved that Poland was a nation engaged in large-scale ethnic cleansings. Also very antisemitic - the Madagascar Plan was Polish, not German.
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=261273&start=165#p2393367

It was a German man - Paul de Lagarde - who first suggested the idea of sending the Jews to Madagascar in 1878.

The fact that the Poles investigated the idea of sending Polish Jews to Madagascar in 1937 isn’t proof that it was a Polish idea.

So don’t try and rewrite history - it was a German idea that was later advocated by antisemites in Britain, Poland and elsewhere.

The rest of your anti-Polish claptrap is hard to read. You seem to think that Poland was reinvented to “bash the Germans”. I suggest you sort your act out otherwise I doubt you’ll be around much longer… that statement is deeply offensive to many people and is just plain wrong.

Similarly,

When I pointed out that the SA were thugs, you replied:
You're pumping pernicious and highly distorted rubbish in here - and this time you need to find the "approved version" for yourself. Look up Rotfront, again, the very western-biased Wikipedia should persuade you that you're wrong.
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=261273&start=165#p2393887

When you post such rubbish, do not expect anyone to take you seriously.

You have posted that:
My words are golden and all my posts are full of good information.
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=261273&start=150#p2391831

Forgetting the blatant narcissism, it is time to show how “golden” what you post actually is because so far it has been the exact opposite.

I can almost guarantee that you will not provide a reference to the G.H. quote.

NickA
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by NickA » 17 Feb 2022 21:00

ljadw wrote:
13 Feb 2022 09:38
The Ostflucht was much more important than the Drang nach Osten : til 1907 2,3 million people had left the eastern provinces of Prussia,of whom 1,6 million Germans and only 358000 had emigrated to the east . 20 % of the population of East Prussia did not speak German in 1905 .In Upper Silesia Polish candidates won 5 of the 12 seats in the last pré-war elections for the Reichstag . And US had lost much of its attraction when in 1893 land became no longer free available for settlers .
I would dispute what you say except you've provided nothing in the way of evidence that I can get my head round and become better informed as a consequence.

In fact, although I think this is addressed to me, you've failed to use the facilities of this fine Forum to quote what you're referring to and nobody knows who you're posting to.

ljadw
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 18 Feb 2022 09:05

NickA wrote:
17 Feb 2022 21:00
ljadw wrote:
13 Feb 2022 09:38
The Ostflucht was much more important than the Drang nach Osten : til 1907 2,3 million people had left the eastern provinces of Prussia,of whom 1,6 million Germans and only 358000 had emigrated to the east . 20 % of the population of East Prussia did not speak German in 1905 .In Upper Silesia Polish candidates won 5 of the 12 seats in the last pré-war elections for the Reichstag . And US had lost much of its attraction when in 1893 land became no longer free available for settlers .
I would dispute what you say except you've provided nothing in the way of evidence that I can get my head round and become better informed as a consequence.

In fact, although I think this is addressed to me, you've failed to use the facilities of this fine Forum to quote what you're referring to and nobody knows who you're posting to.
Coming from the man who used as source G.H.,this is a good one .
Besides : google Ostflucht .
And,the fact that Black is a supporter of the existence of Israel,does not mean that he makes no mistakes ( after all he is an American journalist ) : the 800000 German deaths due to the Allied blockade is an invention . And you would know this,if you had consulted some serious sources,instead of only an American journalist .

NickA
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by NickA » 18 Feb 2022 09:29

ljadw wrote:
13 Feb 2022 09:38
The Ostflucht was much more important than the Drang nach Osten : til 1907 2,3 million people had left the eastern provinces of Prussia,of whom 1,6 million Germans and only 358000 had emigrated to the east . 20 % of the population of East Prussia did not speak German in 1905 .In Upper Silesia Polish candidates won 5 of the 12 seats in the last pré-war elections for the Reichstag . And US had lost much of its attraction when in 1893 land became no longer free available for settlers .
I would dispute what you say except you've provided nothing in the way of evidence that I can get my head round and become better informed as a consequence.

In fact, although I think this is addressed to me, you've failed to use the facilities of this fine Forum to quote what you're referring to and nobody knows who you're posting to.
the fact that Black is a supporter of the existence of Israel,does not mean that he makes no mistakes ( after all he is an American journalist ) : the 800000 German deaths due to the Allied blockade is an invention . And you would know this,if you had consulted some serious sources,instead of only an American journalist .
I see nothing in that post that I can or should respond to.

I'm mostly here to educate myself - un-referenced assertions are no use to me.

No use to you either - but I've produced referenced assertions that Poland was ethnically cleansing German speakers and there are unreferenced (but from people claiming to have researched on the ground, as WW2 seems to be quite short of) that Poland or the Polish were physically attacking the partitioned rump of Germany left after WW1.

ljadw
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 18 Feb 2022 09:41

About the lie of the 800000 German victims from the allied food blockade ,what would you think of a German source ?
Dr Rudolf Meerwarth wrote in 1932 '' Die Einwirkung des Krieges auf Bevölkerungsbewegung,Einkommen und Lebenshaltung in Deutschland ''.
And, he gives as number of victims : 474,084 between 1914 and 1919 , of whom 271,047 in 1018 .
This figure has been quoted by N.P. Howard from the University of Sheffield on p 6 (Table 2 ) of his '' The Social and Political Consequences of the Allied Food Blockade of Germany in 1918-1919 .''
Of course, you are free to prefer the claim of Black instead the figures from Dr Meerwarth .
And,it is very obvious why Black quoted the propaganda figures from the German Health Office : laziness. After all Black is a journalist .
And, the same Meerwarth supported in November 1933 Hitler .

NickA
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by NickA » 18 Feb 2022 11:14

ljadw wrote:
18 Feb 2022 09:41
About the lie of the 800000 German victims from the allied food blockade ,what would you think of a German source ?
Dr Rudolf Meerwarth wrote in 1932 '' Die Einwirkung des Krieges auf Bevölkerungsbewegung,Einkommen und Lebenshaltung in Deutschland ''.
And, he gives as number of victims : 474,084 between 1914 and 1919 , of whom 271,047 in 1018 .
This figure has been quoted by N.P. Howard from the University of Sheffield on p 6 (Table 2 ) of his '' The Social and Political Consequences of the Allied Food Blockade of Germany in 1918-1919 .''
Of course, you are free to prefer the claim of Black instead the figures from Dr Meerwarth .
And,it is very obvious why Black quoted the propaganda figures from the German Health Office : laziness. After all Black is a journalist .
And, the same Meerwarth supported in November 1933 Hitler .
If you can't use the quote facility provided there seems little point in attempting to have a discussion.

I see this:
Wikipedia wrote:The Blockade of Germany, or the Blockade of Europe, occurred from 1914 to 1919. The prolonged naval blockade was conducted by the Allies during and after World War I[3] in an effort to restrict the maritime supply of goods to the Central Powers, which included Germany, Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire. The blockade is considered one of the key elements in the eventual Allied victory in the war. The German Board of Public Health in December 1918 claimed that 763,000 German civilians had already died from starvation and disease, caused by the blockade.[4][5] An academic study done in 1928 put the death toll at 424,000.[1] An additional 100,000 people may have died during the post-armistice continuation of the blockade in 1919.[2]
And, yet again, I detect serious weaknesses (this time at the Wikipedia) in how we report on the war - my reference (Edwin Black's book "The Transfer Agreement" 1984, 1999, 2001 & 2009) is much more recent than yours!

Even this ancient citation to 1940 is far better than the Wikipedia!
https://mises.org/library/blockade-and-attempted-starvation-germany wrote:In December 1918, the National Health Office in Berlin calculated that 763,000 persons had died as a result of the blockade by that time; the number added to this in the first months of 1919 is unknown.[7. The British historian Arthur Bryant, writing in 1940, put the figure even higher, at 800,000 for the last two years of the blockade, "about fifty times more than were drowned by submarine attacks on British shipping." Cited in J.F.C. Fuller, The Conduct of War, 1789–1961 (London: Eyre & Spottiswoode, 1961), p. 178.] In some respects, the armistice saw the intensification of the suffering, since the German Baltic coast was now effectively blockaded and German fishing rights in the Baltic annulled.

ljadw
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 18 Feb 2022 12:07

Arthur Bryant as a source !
Why not Mosley ?There is not much difference between both .
And I will correct Mises : it should be:In December 1918 the National Health Office in Berlin LIED that 763000 persons had died as a result of the blockade by that time .
The excess civilian death figures from professor Meerwarth are 474,085 .
And, not all excess deaths were caused by the allied blockade .Most were caused by the criminal incompetence of the German government that failed to feed its people .

NickA
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by NickA » 18 Feb 2022 13:32

ljadw wrote:
18 Feb 2022 12:07
Arthur Bryant as a source !
I'm not bandying words with people who cannot quote.

ljadw
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ljadw » 18 Feb 2022 15:26

It proves that you don't know that Bryant was a Nazi fan, or that you don't care about it .

ManfredV
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by ManfredV » 18 Feb 2022 17:46


George L Gregory
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by George L Gregory » 18 Feb 2022 19:02

NickA wrote:
18 Feb 2022 09:29
I'm mostly here to educate myself - un-referenced assertions are no use to me.
The pot calling the kettle black!

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=261273&start=180#p2394258
No use to you either - but I've produced referenced assertions that Poland was ethnically cleansing German speakers and there are unreferenced (but from people claiming to have researched on the ground, as WW2 seems to be quite short of) that Poland or the Polish were physically attacking the partitioned rump of Germany left after WW1.
We’re still waiting for you to prove that claim, as well as the other erroneous claims you have made about the Poles and Poland.

You’re quite happy to respond back to another user about something else, but you keep dodging your duty as part of the rules of this forum to provide reliable sources and evidence for your claims. What are you waiting for Nick?

NickA
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by NickA » 18 Feb 2022 21:11

George L Gregory wrote:
15 Feb 2022 10:08
It was a German man - Paul de Lagarde - who first suggested the idea of sending the Jews to Madagascar in 1878.
The antisemitic were very keen on Zionism - indeed, Christians are said to have invented the idea. That doesn't explain an actual expulsion plan, what we know today as the Madagascar Plan which concerned only French colonial land and Poland seeking to get rid of its 3 million Jews. It had no interest to the Nazi regime until, quite unexpectedly, Germany found itself in control of French colonial land and the remainder of (or at least, access to) the French Fleet in May 1940. Wiki says "The plan was not viable due to the British naval blockade. It was postponed after the Nazis lost the Battle of Britain in September 1940."
George L Gregory wrote:
15 Feb 2022 10:08
I can almost guarantee that you will not provide a reference to the G.H. quote.
It doesn't need one - show me people who theorised about the hatred of Poles for Germans or vice-versa (after 1919 - or before if you can find any such reference when there was no Poland).

There must, after all, be quite a lot of original material on the subject - and the bitterness must have contributed to the expulsion of "Polish illegal immigrants" of November 1938. (And the expulsion of German speakers from Bromberg between 1919 and 1939).

But I can barely find anything about this - even my search on "1938 germany polish illegal immigrants" is overwhelmingly dominated by Kristalnacht. The nearest I can find is this, and its barely related::
https://www.holocaust.cz/en/history/events/the-expulsion-of-polish-jews-from-germany/ wrote:After Austria was annexed to Germany in March 1938, the Polish government was afraid that the approximately 20,000 Austrian Jews with Polish citizenship would flee back to Poland. It thus suspended the validity of all Polish passports whose holders had been abroad for more than five years. This law took effect on 31 March 1938, but it was only after the Munich agreement that a decree was issued allowing the passports of all Poles living abroad to be checked. After 31 October 1938 the holders of Polish passports issued abroad were only allowed on to Polish territory if their passports contained a special note made by Polish consulates.
How is it possible that something so explosive and simmering for 19 years (1919 to 1938) and so bound up with Hitler invading Poland and the start of WW2 doesn't get a mention?

Or am I looking in the wrong place?

NickA
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Re: Adolf Hitler’s speech on 30 January 1939 and Lebensraum

Post by NickA » 18 Feb 2022 21:30

I'm not bandying words with commentators who cannot quote.

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