Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
George L Gregory
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 26 Apr 2022 19:42

ljadw wrote:
26 Apr 2022 12:02
1 There are no proofs that after 1867 most ''Austrians " considered themselves to be Germans .
Well considering in 1956 the Austrians who were polled for a survey after learning about the horrors that happened during the Third Reich, over half of them still considered themselves to be part of the German nation. :thumbsup:

However, instead of trying to reverse the burden of proof, it is your claim that the Austrians never considered themselves to be Germans and you have failed to provide any reliable evidence to support that whacky claim.
2 There are no proofs that after 1867 most inhabitants of Cisleithania (which were Slavic ) considered themselves as Austrians .
I thought that we were discussing the German-speaking Austrians.
3 There are proofs that after 1867 most inhabitants of Cisleithania considered themselves as non German .
2 examples :
the number of inhabitants of Cisleithania that volunteered in 1870 and in 1914 to fight against France was insignificant .
in big parts of Germany ( less in Bavaria and Würtemberg ) each year the population celebrated the victory of Sedan on 2 September ( Sedantag ) .This was not done in Cisleithania .
If the 4th of July is not celebrated in Britain,that is a proof that the majority of Britons do not consider themselves as Americans .
4 After 1806 what you call wrongly Austria was a Slavic state, not a German state .
And it is not so that because Franz Jozef claimed to be Emperor of Austria,the inhabitants of his state considered themselves as Austrians .Kafka did not consider himself as Austrian, neither did count Badeni who was PM of Cisleithania !.
Why would they have done that? The Austrians despised the Prussians and the feeling was mutual.

You're bizarrely trying to discuss the non-German lands that the Austrians ruled over. Why? We're discussing the German-speaking Austrians and the German territories.

Franz Kafka was from Bohemia and of Czech-Jewish descent, why would he have thought of himself as a German? 8O

George L Gregory
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 26 Apr 2022 19:45

Do you understand German?
Es belegt die Ambivalenz, welcher der Begriff „Österreicher“ zu dieser Zeit unterworfen war. Einerseits diente er zur Eigendefinition als spezielle Ausformung der Deutschen, so wie Preußen, Sachsen, Bayern usw., andererseits als übernationaler Begriff für die Bürger Cisleithaniens und damit zur Abgrenzung von den Staatsbürgern des Deutschen Reiches. Die Identitätsstrukturen weiter Teile der Bevölkerung waren damals noch regionalistisch ausgeprägt und der Deutschnationalismus blieb vorerst ein bürgerliches Elitenphänomen.

Der Historiker Ernst Bruckmüller bestätigt dies folgendermaßen:

„In der Habsburgermonarchie waren die deutschsprachigen Bewohner (vor allem) des westlichen, österreichischen Reichsteiles, also die Mehrzahl der Bewohner des heutigen Österreich, und darüber hinaus die Deutschböhmen, Deutschmährer, und -schlesier sowie deutschsprachigen Bewohner der anderen Kronländer einfach ‚Deutsche‘ genannt worden. Das war ebenso praktisch wie einleuchtend, denn die ‚anderen‘ waren eben Tschechen, Polen, Ruthenen, Rumänen, Slowenen Kroaten und Italiener (wir sehen hier von der ungarischen Reichshälfte einmal ab). Aber die deutschsprachigen Österreicher waren nicht nur eine von acht ‚Nationalitäten‘ des zisleithanischen Teilstaates der Monarchie, sie sahen sich doch als etwas anderes, nämlich als die staatstragende, um nicht zu sagen eigentliche Staatsnation dieses Teilstaates, oder sogar der ganzen Habsburgermonarchie.“
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96ste ... tit%C3%A4t

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 26 Apr 2022 20:46

It is NOT because they were called ''Deutsche '' that they considered themselves as Deutsche .
German is someone who considers himself as German, not someone who is called German by foreigners .

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 26 Apr 2022 21:08

George L Gregory wrote:
26 Apr 2022 19:42
ljadw wrote:
26 Apr 2022 12:02
1 There are no proofs that after 1867 most ''Austrians " considered themselves to be Germans .
Well considering in 1956 the Austrians who were polled for a survey after learning about the horrors that happened during the Third Reich, over half of them still considered themselves to be part of the German nation. :thumbsup:

However, instead of trying to reverse the burden of proof, it is your claim that the Austrians never considered themselves to be Germans and you have failed to provide any reliable evidence to support that whacky claim.
2 There are no proofs that after 1867 most inhabitants of Cisleithania (which were Slavic ) considered themselves as Austrians .
I thought that we were discussing the German-speaking Austrians.
3 There are proofs that after 1867 most inhabitants of Cisleithania considered themselves as non German .
2 examples :
the number of inhabitants of Cisleithania that volunteered in 1870 and in 1914 to fight against France was insignificant .
in big parts of Germany ( less in Bavaria and Würtemberg ) each year the population celebrated the victory of Sedan on 2 September ( Sedantag ) .This was not done in Cisleithania .
If the 4th of July is not celebrated in Britain,that is a proof that the majority of Britons do not consider themselves as Americans .
4 After 1806 what you call wrongly Austria was a Slavic state, not a German state .
And it is not so that because Franz Jozef claimed to be Emperor of Austria,the inhabitants of his state considered themselves as Austrians .Kafka did not consider himself as Austrian, neither did count Badeni who was PM of Cisleithania !.
Why would they have done that? The Austrians despised the Prussians and the feeling was mutual.

You're bizarrely trying to discuss the non-German lands that the Austrians ruled over. Why? We're discussing the German-speaking Austrians and the German territories.

Franz Kafka was from Bohemia and of Czech-Jewish descent, why would he have thought of himself as a German? 8O
Kafka spoke mostly German and used Czech for communications with his servants .You quoted Brückmüller who said that German speaking people in Bohemia and Moravia were called Germans .Thus Kafka was called German, but we know that he did not consider himself as German . Count Badeni also spoke German , but was Polish .Thus what Brückm"ller said is irrelevant and wrong : no one considered Badeni as German .
And , again : there were no Austrians before 1918 .
You should read :
Ethnic Boxes : the unintended consequences of Habsburg bureaucratic classification .
And there you would read :
''History of nationalisms is far more complex than merely a prehistory of the contemporary states .''
That fact is that the rulers of Cisleithania did their best to ban nationalism from their country . ''The Habsburg state was antagonistic toward nationalist movements . ''

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 27 Apr 2022 06:36

George L Gregory wrote:
26 Apr 2022 19:45
Do you understand German?
Es belegt die Ambivalenz, welcher der Begriff „Österreicher“ zu dieser Zeit unterworfen war. Einerseits diente er zur Eigendefinition als spezielle Ausformung der Deutschen, so wie Preußen, Sachsen, Bayern usw., andererseits als übernationaler Begriff für die Bürger Cisleithaniens und damit zur Abgrenzung von den Staatsbürgern des Deutschen Reiches. Die Identitätsstrukturen weiter Teile der Bevölkerung waren damals noch regionalistisch ausgeprägt und der Deutschnationalismus blieb vorerst ein bürgerliches Elitenphänomen.

Der Historiker Ernst Bruckmüller bestätigt dies folgendermaßen:

„In der Habsburgermonarchie waren die deutschsprachigen Bewohner (vor allem) des westlichen, österreichischen Reichsteiles, also die Mehrzahl der Bewohner des heutigen Österreich, und darüber hinaus die Deutschböhmen, Deutschmährer, und -schlesier sowie deutschsprachigen Bewohner der anderen Kronländer einfach ‚Deutsche‘ genannt worden. Das war ebenso praktisch wie einleuchtend, denn die ‚anderen‘ waren eben Tschechen, Polen, Ruthenen, Rumänen, Slowenen Kroaten und Italiener (wir sehen hier von der ungarischen Reichshälfte einmal ab). Aber die deutschsprachigen Österreicher waren nicht nur eine von acht ‚Nationalitäten‘ des zisleithanischen Teilstaates der Monarchie, sie sahen sich doch als etwas anderes, nämlich als die staatstragende, um nicht zu sagen eigentliche Staatsnation dieses Teilstaates, oder sogar der ganzen Habsburgermonarchie.“
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96ste ... tit%C3%A4t
What Bruckmüller said is not serious at all,because there were no ''deutschsprachige '' people in Cisleithania : there were people who had German as Muttersprache, others used German as Umgangsprache, others had Muttersprache and Umgangsprache: the mother of Masaryk was from a ''German '' family ,thus that mean that her son,who also knew German, was deutschsprachig ?
German was the Lingua Franca,but it is not so that people who spoke some pidgin German ,were deutschsprachig .
If a man spoke at home Czech, at his work some basic German, sent his son to a ''German '' school and his daughter to a '' Czech '' school ,how do you qualify him ?deutschsprachig or Czech speaking ?
And if he was deutschsprachig,does that mean that he was German ?
Today in Europe English is the Lingua Franca, but that does not mean that all those who can speak a little English can be considered as English speaking people ,and if they can be considered as English speaking,that does not mean that they are British .
It was the same in Cisleithania .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 27 Apr 2022 09:31

The adjective Austrian entered the English language in the early 17th century, at the time referring to Habsburg Austria in the sense of "members of the Austrian branch of the House of Habsburg" (the junior branch emerging from the dynastic split into Austrian and Spanish Habsburgs in 1521), but from the 18th century also "a native or inhabitant of Austria".
It’s that simple.

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 27 Apr 2022 13:18

George L Gregory wrote:
27 Apr 2022 09:31
The adjective Austrian entered the English language in the early 17th century, at the time referring to Habsburg Austria in the sense of "members of the Austrian branch of the House of Habsburg" (the junior branch emerging from the dynastic split into Austrian and Spanish Habsburgs in 1521), but from the 18th century also "a native or inhabitant of Austria".
It’s that simple.
It's that simple : you use the meaning of an English word that is dating from the 18th century ,that is also wrong as there was no Austrian state in the 18th century (your Austria had a mainly Slavonic population ),you transport this word to the 19th and 20th century and demand that every one should use this word and accept it .
Other point : the dynastic split did not happen in 1521 but in 1556 and Castile and Aragon were unified only in the 18th century .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 27 Apr 2022 18:18

ljadw wrote:
27 Apr 2022 13:18
George L Gregory wrote:
27 Apr 2022 09:31
The adjective Austrian entered the English language in the early 17th century, at the time referring to Habsburg Austria in the sense of "members of the Austrian branch of the House of Habsburg" (the junior branch emerging from the dynastic split into Austrian and Spanish Habsburgs in 1521), but from the 18th century also "a native or inhabitant of Austria".
It’s that simple.
It's that simple : you use the meaning of an English word that is dating from the 18th century ,that is also wrong as there was no Austrian state in the 18th century (your Austria had a mainly Slavonic population ),you transport this word to the 19th and 20th century and demand that every one should use this word and accept it .
Other point : the dynastic split did not happen in 1521 but in 1556 and Castile and Aragon were unified only in the 18th century .
On the contrary, every historian or anyone else who is quoted is wrong because it doesn’t suit your narrative.

What language are we posting in exactly? The last time I checked it was ENGLISH. Thus, we are going to use definitions in English.

No one has denied that there was a Slavic population or better put people of Slavic descent such as Czech. And? It doesn’t change a thing. There were also people in Germany so Slavic descent such as Polish. And???

A people and a state are two different things. There were Germans prior to the unification of Germany in 1871. There were Italians prior to the unification of Italy in 1861.

Austria was first mentioned in 996!

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 27 Apr 2022 20:00

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
26 Apr 2022 18:25
ljadw wrote:
25 Apr 2022 20:56
The plebiscite of 1938 :
Do you agree with the reunification of Austria with the German Reich that was enacted on 13 March 1938 and do you vote for the party of our leader Adolf Hitler?
For 99.73 %
You are writing about the post 1918 period, I am writing about the period between 1867 and 1918 .
A lot has been written ( mostly wrongly ) about the friendship and alliance between Germany and AH after 1867 til 1918, especially by Anglo-Saxon authors . They forget that Vienna did not support Germany during the Agadir crises,that Vienna only reluctantly declared war on Russia,etc...and that the policy of both countries was based on their own interests and not on a vague idea of German solidarity .
Vienna was the capital of Cisleithania where German ''speakers 'were only 30 % of the population ,a country which had waged its last war against Prussia and its allies .
After the dissolution of Cisleithania, these 9 million German speakers realized that they could not create their own state and became almost all German nationalists .
But only after the defeat of 1918 .Before 1918,they were better off in Cisleithania .Besides : the Anschluss with Germany was possible only after Germany became a republic .
Austria was inhabited by german people. In 1918 Austria lost all its satellites (Hungary etc). The country became very little. People didnt see any interest to stay alone. They wanted to unite with Germany since they were same people (volk).
Austria and Germany planned many times to make a "zollverein".
The will to unite (Anschluss) was not surprising at all from 1918 till 1938.

ps : i reposted this post with good quotes

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 27 Apr 2022 20:48

1 A big part of the population of present Austria was not ''German '' before 1918 : 33 % of its population lived in Vienna and almost half of the population of Vienna was Slavic . Vienna was called the biggest European Slavic city .
2 Hungary was not a satellite of ''Austria '' and was becoming a de facto independent state .
3 Yes :the will to unite (Anschluss ) was strong after WW1 , but NOT before WW 1 ,as there was no need for an Anschluss before 1918 and as the coexistence of the Hohenzollerns and the Habsburgers in ONE state was impossible .Besides the Anschluss of Cisleithania was impossible as the majority of Cisleithanian population was Slavic ,neither could present Austria become a part of Germany,as this would mean the end of Cisleithania and also of Transleithania and no one,even not Russia, especially not Russia would accept this .

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 27 Apr 2022 22:14

ljadw wrote:
27 Apr 2022 20:48
1 A big part of the population of present Austria was not ''German '' before 1918 : 33 % of its population lived in Vienna and almost half of the population of Vienna was Slavic . Vienna was called the biggest European Slavic city .
2 Hungary was not a satellite of ''Austria '' and was becoming a de facto independent state .
3 Yes :the will to unite (Anschluss ) was strong after WW1 , but NOT before WW 1 ,as there was no need for an Anschluss before 1918 and as the coexistence of the Hohenzollerns and the Habsburgers in ONE state was impossible .Besides the Anschluss of Cisleithania was impossible as the majority of Cisleithanian population was Slavic ,neither could present Austria become a part of Germany,as this would mean the end of Cisleithania and also of Transleithania and no one,even not Russia, especially not Russia would accept this .
This map of 1910 is helpful
austria 1910.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ethnic.svg
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George L Gregory
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 28 Apr 2022 00:28

ljadw wrote:
27 Apr 2022 20:48
1 A big part of the population of present Austria was not ''German '' before 1918 : 33 % of its population lived in Vienna and almost half of the population of Vienna was Slavic .
Can you provide a source for that claim?
Vienna was called the biggest European Slavic city .
By whom?
Last edited by George L Gregory on 28 Apr 2022 08:08, edited 1 time in total.

Ecam
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by Ecam » 28 Apr 2022 05:08

525AE162-CB4C-4186-950B-8683EC1A90B9.jpeg
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ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 28 Apr 2022 07:12

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
27 Apr 2022 22:14
ljadw wrote:
27 Apr 2022 20:48
1 A big part of the population of present Austria was not ''German '' before 1918 : 33 % of its population lived in Vienna and almost half of the population of Vienna was Slavic . Vienna was called the biggest European Slavic city .
2 Hungary was not a satellite of ''Austria '' and was becoming a de facto independent state .
3 Yes :the will to unite (Anschluss ) was strong after WW1 , but NOT before WW 1 ,as there was no need for an Anschluss before 1918 and as the coexistence of the Hohenzollerns and the Habsburgers in ONE state was impossible .Besides the Anschluss of Cisleithania was impossible as the majority of Cisleithanian population was Slavic ,neither could present Austria become a part of Germany,as this would mean the end of Cisleithania and also of Transleithania and no one,even not Russia, especially not Russia would accept this .
This map of 1910 is helpful austria 1910.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ethnic.svg
I know this map but he is not reliable as he is founded on the answers people did give in the census : it is totally uncertain if people who answered that they spoke German,meant that they used German as Umgangssprache or that German was their Muttersprache : colloquial language or native language .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 28 Apr 2022 08:10

ljadw wrote:
28 Apr 2022 07:12
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
27 Apr 2022 22:14
ljadw wrote:
27 Apr 2022 20:48
1 A big part of the population of present Austria was not ''German '' before 1918 : 33 % of its population lived in Vienna and almost half of the population of Vienna was Slavic . Vienna was called the biggest European Slavic city .
2 Hungary was not a satellite of ''Austria '' and was becoming a de facto independent state .
3 Yes :the will to unite (Anschluss ) was strong after WW1 , but NOT before WW 1 ,as there was no need for an Anschluss before 1918 and as the coexistence of the Hohenzollerns and the Habsburgers in ONE state was impossible .Besides the Anschluss of Cisleithania was impossible as the majority of Cisleithanian population was Slavic ,neither could present Austria become a part of Germany,as this would mean the end of Cisleithania and also of Transleithania and no one,even not Russia, especially not Russia would accept this .
This map of 1910 is helpful austria 1910.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ethnic.svg
I know this map but he is not reliable as he is founded on the answers people did give in the census : it is totally uncertain if people who answered that they spoke German,meant that they used German as Umgangssprache or that German was their Muttersprache : colloquial language or native language .
There you have it folks.

ljadw will come up with any old excuse to disagree with any evidence that shows quite clearly that the Austrian Germans were the largest ethnic group in Cisleithania (the Empire of Austria).
In general, the lands were just called Austria, but the term "Austrian lands" (Österreichische Länder) originally did not apply to the Lands of the Bohemian Crown (i.e., Bohemia proper, the Margraviate of Moravia and Duchy of Silesia) or to the territories annexed in the 18th-century Partitions of Poland (Galicia) or the former Venetian Dalmatia.

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