Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

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Mannheim
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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by Mannheim » 24 Dec 2022 05:08

David Frankenberg's last sentence pretty much sums up the process at the time. Greater detail can be found in Bryan Mark Rigg's "Hitler's Jewish Soldiers". High;y recommended.
https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-7006-1178-2
Kein Irrtum ist so groß, der nicht seinen Zuhörer hat.

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Gorque
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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by Gorque » 24 Dec 2022 13:34

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
23 Dec 2022 14:37
Gorque wrote:
22 Dec 2022 00:11
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
21 Dec 2022 21:39
George L Gregory wrote:
13 Dec 2022 00:32
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
06 Dec 2022 19:36
Many Jews were married to Aryans.
Viktor Klemperer is the most famous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer
They were thousands. They were free until the end of the war. They were not sent to death's camps.
The "Aryans" who were married to Jews, known as Jüdisch versippt, were discriminated against in various ways, they were restricted with regard to employment in certain professions and their opportunities were hindered too. After the Civil Service Law was passed in 1933, "Aryans" who were married to people of Jewish descent were not allowed to be hired as civil servants. Joseph Goebbels wanted to get rid of any Jewish influence in The Reich Chamber of Culture and he sought to get rid of people in relationships with people of Jewish descent. They were also excluded from serving in the Wehrmacht. Eventually they were even used as forced labourers.
Klemperer lost his job, but not his wife. It was hard time because of the war. But he was still free till the end of the war.
I strongly disagree. Victor Klemperer and his wife were forced to live in a Jews home in Dresden. They had witnessed first hand the disappearance of their fellow housemates "to the east".

Victor Klemperer and his loyal protestant wife endured many privations during the life of the Third Reich. What saved Victor Klemperer was not only his marriage to a German, but also his meritorious service with the artillery in the Kaiser's Army.

His English version "I Will Bear Witness" is a sobering read of the trials and tribulations faced by mixed marriage Germans. What saved Victor Klemperer in the end, was his service in the Heer as many other mixed marriage Germans were sent "East".
I confirm our disagreement. Klemperer was saved ONLY by his aryan wife, and he knew it and said it (it did not prevent him to marry another young woman after the war).

No jew was spared because of his service in the Heer or his early conversion to christianism or even his antisemitism.
The only reason for a jew to be spared was a special decision by Hitler (ex : Dr Bloch, E. Milch, Emil Maurice etc.) or being married to an aryan woman.
Hi David:

My point was that Victor Klemperer was saved from being murdered by the combination of factors, his marriage to a German, his wife's decision to live with him at the "Jews Home," his meritorious service in the Kaiser's Army, his conversion and finally, the destruction of the forced housing during the Dresden Fire bombing, when he and his wife, along with many of the other survivors, left the city and headed south. As you've stated, and to which I agree, his military service would not have saved him, i.e. no one single factor would have prevented him from being sent "East."

The point I strongly disagreed with was about him being "free." If my memory serves me correctly he was forbidden to walk on many thoroughfares, could not ride the trams, was limited, time wise, as to how long he was allowed to travel outside of the home (IIRC one to two hours/day), and was forced to wear the Star of David on his lapel and thus was further limited as to which establishments he could enter. His wife had to do all the food shopping as he, with the time constraints and his age, would not have been able to.

Here is an excerpt from the 2nd volume which deals with a "deportation" and the treatment given to those in mixed-marriages and First World War veterans:
February 13, Tuesday afternoon, perfect spring weather:

Odysseus in Polyphemus' cave. - Yesterday afternoon Neumark had me called over; I had to help him deliver letters this morning. I was quite unsuspecting. In the evening Berger was up here with me for a while, I told him, and he was annoyed and said, it'll be for digging trenches. I still did not grasp the seriousness of the threat. So today I was at Neumark's. Frau Jährig came out of his room weeping. Then he told me. Evacuation of all those capable of work, it's called outside work duty; as I myself[i.e., Klemperer] am released from duty, I remain here. I:So the end is more likely for me than those who are leaving. He: That is not the case; on the contrary, remaining here is a privilege; there will also remain a man who lost two sons in the First World War, further, he himself, Neumark, then Katz (presumably as holder of the Iron Cross, FIrst Class, not as physician, because Simon is going), Waldmann and a couple of those who are seriously ill and released from duty. ... On this occasion there is to be no confiscation of property, furniture, etc.; the whole thing is explicitly no more than outside work duty - but is without exception regarded as a death march. Frau Eisenmann and Schorschi stay here, Lisel, the eleven year old, who wears the star, has to leave with father and Herbert. No allowance is made for old age or youth, not for seventy nor for seven - what they mean by "capable of work" is quite incomprehensible. ... Also in Franklinstraße I had to call on a Frau Pürckhauer. I met her with her Aryan and deaf husband. Ordinary people. They were the calmest of those on my list.

p. 404

LAstry2
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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by LAstry2 » 24 Dec 2022 17:20

CHildren of Mixed marriages....Children with Jewish mothers..non Jewish fathers....are onsidered Jewish {religious law} Children with Jewish fathers and Non jewish mothers (not Jewish by religious law) but considered Jewish by the Nazis... Werner Klemperer case in Point....had they stayed in Germany...his father would have been deported to the east....Werner and his mother would have been ghettized.....and ultimately would have been deported to the east.... now as to the Questions would Jews have been subject to the death penalty for having any type of relations with non Jewish germans..the answer is yes....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katzenberger_Trial

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Schlegelberger who favored descendants of Mixed marriages being either sterilization or to be evacuated in the same manner as Jews

George L Gregory
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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by George L Gregory » 24 Dec 2022 22:35

Mannheim wrote:
24 Dec 2022 05:08
David Frankenberg's last sentence pretty much sums up the process at the time. Greater detail can be found in Bryan Mark Rigg's "Hitler's Jewish Soldiers". High;y recommended.
https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-7006-1178-2
The title of that book is totally misleading to people. Those people weren’t considered “Jews” by the Nazis. The Nazis allowed people of half-Jewish (two Jewish grandparents) and quarter-Jewish (one Jewish grandparent) to be Reich citizens and the latter were allowed to marry people of German or related blood (Aryans) without permission.

George L Gregory
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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by George L Gregory » 24 Dec 2022 22:44

LAstry2 wrote:
24 Dec 2022 17:20
CHildren of Mixed marriages....Children with Jewish mothers..non Jewish fathers....are onsidered Jewish {religious law} Children with Jewish fathers and Non jewish mothers (not Jewish by religious law) but considered Jewish by the Nazis... Werner Klemperer case in Point....had they stayed in Germany...his father would have been deported to the east....Werner and his mother would have been ghettized.....and ultimately would have been deported to the east.... now as to the Questions would Jews have been subject to the death penalty for having any type of relations with non Jewish germans..the answer is yes....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katzenberger_Trial

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Schlegelberger who favored descendants of Mixed marriages being either sterilization or to be evacuated in the same manner as Jews
No, those children were not considered to be Jewish. In fact, a child born to a non-Jewish German and a German with only one Jewish grandparent who would therefore be only 1/8th Jewish was considered to be an “Aryan”. The Nazis made distinctions between Mischlinge of first-degree and second-degree.

The only Jews who were given the death penalty for having sexual relations with Germans were convicted of something else since the Nuremberg Laws did not allow for the death penalty to be issued. But, oddly enough, Poles, who were considered to be Aryans (German or related blood) like all of the European peoples, were given the death penalty for having sexual relations with Germans and it was often given out without even a trial in court. German women who had sexual relations with Poles were publicly humiliated by being paraded around their town or village with a placard detailing their crime. That punishment was so draconian that there’s a case of two young German girls who were raped by Poles who suffered the same fate.

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Gorque
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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by Gorque » 25 Dec 2022 14:50

Hi George:

I found this in-depth article by Michaela Raggam-Blach. She did a study of three Viennese mixed-marriages and the experiences after the Anschluss based upon interviews. I found it enlightening in regards to the confusing welter of definitions employed by the Nazis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6817312/

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 23 Jan 2023 21:49

Gorque wrote:
24 Dec 2022 13:34
Hi David:

My point was that Victor Klemperer was saved from being murdered by the combination of factors, his marriage to a German, his wife's decision to live with him at the "Jews Home," his meritorious service in the Kaiser's Army, his conversion and finally, the destruction of the forced housing during the Dresden Fire bombing, when he and his wife, along with many of the other survivors, left the city and headed south. As you've stated, and to which I agree, his military service would not have saved him, i.e. no one single factor would have prevented him from being sent "East."

The point I strongly disagreed with was about him being "free." If my memory serves me correctly he was forbidden to walk on many thoroughfares, could not ride the trams, was limited, time wise, as to how long he was allowed to travel outside of the home (IIRC one to two hours/day), and was forced to wear the Star of David on his lapel and thus was further limited as to which establishments he could enter. His wife had to do all the food shopping as he, with the time constraints and his age, would not have been able to.

Here is an excerpt from the 2nd volume which deals with a "deportation" and the treatment given to those in mixed-marriages and First World War veterans:
February 13, Tuesday afternoon, perfect spring weather:

Odysseus in Polyphemus' cave. - Yesterday afternoon Neumark had me called over; I had to help him deliver letters this morning. I was quite unsuspecting. In the evening Berger was up here with me for a while, I told him, and he was annoyed and said, it'll be for digging trenches. I still did not grasp the seriousness of the threat. So today I was at Neumark's. Frau Jährig came out of his room weeping. Then he told me. Evacuation of all those capable of work, it's called outside work duty; as I myself[i.e., Klemperer] am released from duty, I remain here. I:So the end is more likely for me than those who are leaving. He: That is not the case; on the contrary, remaining here is a privilege; there will also remain a man who lost two sons in the First World War, further, he himself, Neumark, then Katz (presumably as holder of the Iron Cross, FIrst Class, not as physician, because Simon is going), Waldmann and a couple of those who are seriously ill and released from duty. ... On this occasion there is to be no confiscation of property, furniture, etc.; the whole thing is explicitly no more than outside work duty - but is without exception regarded as a death march. Frau Eisenmann and Schorschi stay here, Lisel, the eleven year old, who wears the star, has to leave with father and Herbert. No allowance is made for old age or youth, not for seventy nor for seven - what they mean by "capable of work" is quite incomprehensible. ... Also in Franklinstraße I had to call on a Frau Pürckhauer. I met her with her Aryan and deaf husband. Ordinary people. They were the calmest of those on my list.

p. 404
AFAI remember, Klemperer lived a hard time only at the end of the war. Remember this time was hard for everyone...
As a jew he should have died, he was a survivor, his life was saved by his wife who did not let him down. He expressly say so himself.
I will try to re-read his diary. Many years ago I read it.

George L Gregory
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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by George L Gregory » 31 Jan 2023 13:28

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katzenberger_Trial

A trial that took place with regard to an allegation of a Jewish man having an affair (sexual relations) with a German woman. The Jewish man was hanged for race defilement, but only by the Verordnung zur Ergänzung der Strafvorschriften zum Schutz der Wehrkraft des Deutschen Volkes (Decree for the Protection of Defensive Capacity of the German people) that was used against him which forbade sexual relations with foreigners and not the Nuremberg Laws.

On the other hand, The Polish Decrees stated that “who has sexual relations with a German man or woman, or approaches them in any other improper manner, will be punished by death.” Thousands upon thousands of Poles were hanged without any trials. It was so severe that even German girls who were raped by Polish labourers were paraded through their local villages with placards displaying their ‘crime’.

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