Berghof Obersalzberg
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Rob:
God almighty that's big! It's the first time I've seen a Tallboy with humans standing next to it, to give an idea of proportion, so thank you for posting it. My earlier post was wrong. I said it's 1200lbs. It is of course 12,000 lbs. And that wasn't the biggest bomb in stock. The biggest was the Grand Slam.
I've asked a friend of mine in the RAF Benevolent Fund to do a bit of research into the other Tallboy hits on 25 April 1945. There may well have been a hit on the Kehlstein, but where did the other 4/6 land? (I think there were 6/8 Tallboys used). If I have no luck there, I'll ask the Imperial War Museum.
I'm back in Obersalzberg in March, July and September and when I go back I want to find those damn elusive Tallboy craters. How can they be so hard to spot!!
God almighty that's big! It's the first time I've seen a Tallboy with humans standing next to it, to give an idea of proportion, so thank you for posting it. My earlier post was wrong. I said it's 1200lbs. It is of course 12,000 lbs. And that wasn't the biggest bomb in stock. The biggest was the Grand Slam.
I've asked a friend of mine in the RAF Benevolent Fund to do a bit of research into the other Tallboy hits on 25 April 1945. There may well have been a hit on the Kehlstein, but where did the other 4/6 land? (I think there were 6/8 Tallboys used). If I have no luck there, I'll ask the Imperial War Museum.
I'm back in Obersalzberg in March, July and September and when I go back I want to find those damn elusive Tallboy craters. How can they be so hard to spot!!
- Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
I went back and had another look at the post-bombing aerial photos, and I see three other large craters that may have been made by the same size bomb that made the crater in the hillside behind the Berghof. Two of these bombs hit in wooded areas, and their craters may still be visible, between the path going to the Teehaus from the Türken, and the Obertalstrasse. The third hit out in the Gutshof meadow, which is now the golf course, so naturally it has been filled in and smoothed over.
I don't know what size bomb(s) made these craters, but they are considerably larger than the surrounding bomb craters, and look roughly the size of the Berghof crater.
One thing that struck me as I was looking over these photos ... although the main targets were the Berghof and SS Kaserne, and both of these were hard hit, the vast majority of the bombs fell east of the primary targets, in the Klaushöhe-Riemerfeld-Buchenhöhe area, and the surrounding woods.
I don't know what size bomb(s) made these craters, but they are considerably larger than the surrounding bomb craters, and look roughly the size of the Berghof crater.
One thing that struck me as I was looking over these photos ... although the main targets were the Berghof and SS Kaserne, and both of these were hard hit, the vast majority of the bombs fell east of the primary targets, in the Klaushöhe-Riemerfeld-Buchenhöhe area, and the surrounding woods.
- Steve Hoog
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
I have to say that the Ally bombers were **** poor aim.
Loyalty is My Honor
Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
The fog machines may have been working, hence the poor aim.
- Steve Hoog
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
While I don't remember it being windy in my few days there; I was going to guess a strong Alp wind driving them off course? Still a huge shame the Berghof was torn down; I know the Turken took heavy damage and it is a beautiful place today.
Loyalty is My Honor
Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Hi Steve,
There is more but you can get the gist of it.
http://www.polishsquadronsremembered.co ... gaden.html
In BH-A piloted by Flt/Lt Adamowski flew F/O Aleksander Dauman. He recalls that mission:
"In 1945, the most frequently used route to Germany was by flying first over liberated France. When approaching Berchtesgaden, we were flying toward the Alps in a roughly southern direction with Salzburg clearly visible on our left. We could see the three Lancasters with vertical stabilizers painted white, which were leading the bombers to the target.
When they turned left in the easterly direction we were southwest of Berchtesgaden. Unfortunately, the leading pathfinder aircraft went too far east instead of turning earlier in the northerly direction toward Berchtesgaden. As a result, they led us to the target from the east over the top of the mountains, thus depriving me of the view of the target until it was too late to steer toward the objective. There was no other choice; I asked my pilot Flt/Lt Adamowski to make another bombing run.
I remember that on that second approach from the south I aimed the bombs at an area shown and described on an aerial photograph as villas belonging to high Nazi officials with their individual names inscribed on the photo. The area was covered by smoke. I learned later that W/Cdr Jarkowski, the Squadron's Commanding Officer, also had to make a second bombing run."
There is more but you can get the gist of it.
Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
http://www.awm.gov.au/wartime/61/berchtesgaden/The bombers flew southwards over France and into Bavaria in clear blue skies, turning eastwards at Lake Constance toward their target. Peter Firkins, a rear gunner, later wrote that “no travel poster could ever depict the magnificence of the day, the Alps glistening in the sunlight, the green fields below, and, receding behind into the distance, the blue waters of Lake Constance.” The peaceful scenes did not last. The bombers arrived in two waves at 9 am and 10.30 am. As they approached the target area they found the mountain tops in cloud. The Eagle’s Nest itself remained shrouded throughout the raid. The Mosquito Pathfinders at the head of the bomber stream found it hard to visually identify targets because of mist and a layer of ground snow. In addition, the mountains interfered with their Oboe direction finding signals, even though they were flying at 39,000 feet (for a description of Oboe, see Wartime Issue 51). The bombers had to orbit around the target for a period, some coming under heavy flak as they found themselves as far away as Salzberg, before making their run. Once the target was found, over 1,400 tons of bombs were dropped, including four 12,000 pound Tallboy bombs. The heavy payload was designed to destroy bunker networks that were believed to exist below the Obersalzberg complex. The SS barracks – the key target – were severely damaged. Houses belonging to Göring (who survived the raid in his bomb shelter) and Bormann were destroyed. The RAF official historian, Hilary Saunders, boasted that a thousand-pounder had made the deep end of Göring’s swimming pool a little bit deeper. The Berghof itself also sustained heavy damage. Days later, American and French troops arrived on the scene to rummage through the ruins for souvenirs.
Only days after the bombing, American and French troops outside the former Hotel Zum Türken, Obersalzberg, which served as a headquarters for the Sicherheitsdienst. It was one of several buildings at the Nazi complex at Obersalzberg. P02018.380
Only days after the bombing, American and French troops outside the former
Hotel Zum Türken, Obersalzberg, which served as a headquarters for the
Sicherheitsdienst. It was one of several buildings at the Nazi complex at
Obersalzberg.
P02018.380
Anti-aircraft fire downed two bombers during the raid. One was a Lancaster belonging to No. 460 Squadron. One of the last over the target, it was flown by Flying Officer Henry “Lofty” Payne. Seconds after dropping its bombs, German flak guns hit Payne’s Lancaster nine times. Bomb doors were blown away, as was an engine. Two more engines were aflame. Flak also pierced the wings and fuselage, and damaged the cockpit and controls. Sergeant Colin Fraser, who had moved from his navigator’s chair to get a view of target, returned to his position to find a gaping hole where he had been sitting. His decision to go to peek at the target probably saved his life. At the controls, Payne hoped to glide the Lancaster to the American lines, only 40 miles to the north, but the fourth engine failed and fuel from burst lines began flooding the fuselage. Payne issued the order for his crew to bail out.
Having maintained control of the Lancaster as the crew one by one made their exit from the nose escape hatch, Payne then began to unbuckle himself from his seat. As he was readying for his own exit he was surprised when his rear gunner appeared with his parachute trailing behind. As the rear gunner made his way out of his position, his parachute had caught on a piece of torn metal and burst from his pack inside the aircraft. Payne ordered him to get the spare chute, supposed to be carried on all operations, but the rear gunner returned to report it could not be found. It had not been packed before take-off.
Facing each another in their predicament, Payne chose without hesitation to attempt a crash landing. As the Lancaster glided down from 15,000 feet through the mountainous alpine valley, Payne and the rear gunner watched nervously as the flames inched closer to the fuel tank. The alpine surroundings were not ideal for crash landing, but as they got lower, Payne picked out his spot in a field. The stricken bomber glided in and skidded to a halt, more or less intact – but not before a telegraph wire had sheared off the tops of the Lancaster’s tail fins as it came in. To their relief the fuel in the fuselage, now six inches deep, had not ignited. As they emerged from the wreckage they were arrested by a gang of Hitlerjugend (Hitler Youth) armed with machine-guns. The pair were soon relieved from the horrible possibility of being executed by trigger-happy juvenile delinquents when a group of older men, members of the Volkssturm (Home Guard), arrived on the scene to take them into custody. Their stay in the Reich as prisoners of war would only be a short one, as Payne and his crew were soon liberated by the advancing American forces at the Moosburg prisoner of war camp on 29 April. Payne’s Lancaster was the last of No. 460 Squadron, and the second last crew of all of Bomber Command, to be shot down on operations.
News of the loss of an RAAF Lancaster may have subdued any jubilation over the otherwise largely successful Anzac day raid on a target strongly symbolic of Nazism. But news of Payne’s bravery and the survival of his crew would soon reach Binbrook. For members of the No. 460 Squadron, Payne’s action – occurring as it did 30 years to the day after the original Anzac landed on Gallipoli – was seen to be symbolic of the spirit and reputation befitting the squadron’s record of service.
While the Anzac day raid on Berchtesgaden would be No. 460 Squadron’s last for the war, their service did not end there. Two more peaceful operations would follow: Operation Exodus, the evacuation of Allied prisoners of war from Germany, and Operation Manna, a food lift to the stricken and starving civilians of the Netherlands. Despite its high profile target, the Anzac Day raid on Berchtesgaden has largely remained a footnote in the history of No. 460 Squadron’s record of service in the
including four 12,000 pound Tallboy bombs
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Many thanks Geoff. I'll be there on 15 March, I'll print out that photo and take it with me. Every time I go to Obersalzberg I think I've seen it all, but there's always more nooks and crannies to discover, which is quite amazing, given it's a relatively small place.Geoff Walden wrote:I went back and had another look at the post-bombing aerial photos, and I see three other large craters that may have been made by the same size bomb that made the crater in the hillside behind the Berghof. Two of these bombs hit in wooded areas, and their craters may still be visible, between the path going to the Teehaus from the Türken, and the Obertalstrasse. The third hit out in the Gutshof meadow, which is now the golf course, so naturally it has been filled in and smoothed over.
I don't know what size bomb(s) made these craters, but they are considerably larger than the surrounding bomb craters, and look roughly the size of the Berghof crater.
One thing that struck me as I was looking over these photos ... although the main targets were the Berghof and SS Kaserne, and both of these were hard hit, the vast majority of the bombs fell east of the primary targets, in the Klaushöhe-Riemerfeld-Buchenhöhe area, and the surrounding woods.
- Steve Hoog
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Nice work, both of you! So smoke and approach; too bad that didn't save the building in the end.
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- Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Looking at Google Maps, it looks like the crater that I labeled as Nr. 2 is now on the ski lift slope, so probably it is no longer visible. Nr. 3's location seems to be still in the woods, so that would probably be the best bet. So, Annelie's report (thanks, Annelie!) says there were only four Tallboys dropped; if so, this would seem to be all of them (if these are indeed "Tallboy" craters, and not "Cookie" craters).
From February 1945 on, specially trained "SS-Maiden" replaced the SS men in the SS-Nebelabteilung Obersalzberg (fog generator detachment). One of these women who was present during the bombing attack said that they did not have sufficient warning or time to activate the fog generators, and they got caught on the way to their positions by the bombing and so had to take cover before they reached the fog generators. So there wasn't any artificial fog. I suspect the "smoke" reported by the RAF was the low level natural fog that is very common around there, coupled with the difficulty of picking out the targets against the snow on the ground (as the other report stated). (Wolfgang Vopersal, "Die SS-Nebelabteilung 'Obersalzberg'," Der Freiwillige 21, Feb-March 1975)
From February 1945 on, specially trained "SS-Maiden" replaced the SS men in the SS-Nebelabteilung Obersalzberg (fog generator detachment). One of these women who was present during the bombing attack said that they did not have sufficient warning or time to activate the fog generators, and they got caught on the way to their positions by the bombing and so had to take cover before they reached the fog generators. So there wasn't any artificial fog. I suspect the "smoke" reported by the RAF was the low level natural fog that is very common around there, coupled with the difficulty of picking out the targets against the snow on the ground (as the other report stated). (Wolfgang Vopersal, "Die SS-Nebelabteilung 'Obersalzberg'," Der Freiwillige 21, Feb-March 1975)
Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
I have used Geoffs photo to do a google earth overlay to show where the bombs hit, you will need to have google earth installed to view the overlay file which is at the link below... if you untick the overlay in the left hand window once it has opened in google earth you can switch between the old and new views or if you right click the file in the same window and select properties you can fade it in and out using the opacity option.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/2wnuq5
http://www.sendspace.com/file/2wnuq5
- Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
That's great work - thanks, Obsidian!
Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Please scan your computer Geoff.
Opening that file gaved me 2 trojans in AVG-free,
and 40 objects in Malwarebytes.
Therefore here my overlay ,just as a simple pic.
Opening that file gaved me 2 trojans in AVG-free,
and 40 objects in Malwarebytes.
Therefore here my overlay ,just as a simple pic.
- Attachments
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- crater.jpg (115.59 KiB) Viewed 1392 times
Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Hey Geoff! Any update on the release of your book?
Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Are you for real? how the hell do you get 40 malware programs and two trojans in a file 612 bytes in size... its your computer that needs scanning!Jade2014 wrote:Please scan your computer Geoff.
Opening that file gaved me 2 trojans in AVG-free,
and 40 objects in Malwarebytes.
Therefore here my overlay ,just as a simple pic.
I've included a scan of the overlay for those who don't want to interact with it on Google earth.