Berghof Obersalzberg

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
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Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#2641

Post by Geoff Walden » 16 Oct 2012, 20:34

berghof1.jpg
period postcard from E. Baumann photo
berghof1.jpg (25.55 KiB) Viewed 1775 times
Biber wrote:Geoff -

Regarding the first aerial reconnaissance photo taken of the Berghof after the bombing from your site, I just noticed that there seem to be a lot of shadows of paths, some of them quite sizeable, on the hillside behind the building. One extending from the end of the adjutancy and going up into the woods; another large one, almost like a road, going directly up the hill to the left of the bomb damage to the kitchen wing of the Berghof; and a very faint one going down the hill just beyond the right side of the terrace. Could these be ghosts of pathways from the original construction and renovation? It wouldn't surprise me if they were "ghosts" of previous trails/roads. Aerial photography has long revealed ghost images of ancient settlements most notably in Britain.

Odd that from that angle, almost directly overhead but not quite, the garage does not appear extended beyond the roofline. Was the roof overhang really that far out over the driveway? must have been.

Image
My friend, I think you have really hit on something new here ... something that I have never considered before, anyway. You are so right - aerial photography can bring out a lot of details that can't be seen on the ground - even now, looking at Google Earth/Maps shows up features such as 8.8cm gun positions from flak batteries, that cannot at all be seen on the ground.

Anyway, for sure, two of these three features that you pointed out match paths and/or fencelines that were previously there. The one that I cannot really match up is the one that appears to go downhill to the right of the garage/terrace. There does sometimes appear to be a faint path or something there in postcard views of the front of the Berghof, but I can't find anything definite there on earlier photos or maps.

The feature running up behind the Adjutancy was a double fenceline (I drew a red line along here in the photo below). I don't know if this was a guard path, or a dog run, or what - it was associated with a dog kennel just behind the Adjutancy (doesn't show on this map, which is printed upsidedown to match the aerial view), so maybe it was some sort of odd narrow dog run.

The one that intrigues me the most, which I think is a great "detective find," is the ghost path running up the hillside behind the kitchen wing of the Berghof. This most certainly seems to me to be the trace of a fenceline that was there in the early 1930s, before the Berghof was built (or very close, anyway). After scrutinizing this photo, I really think this fenceline was the original property boundary of the Türken. To add a driveway and garage to Haus Wachenfeld, Hitler wanted to buy the necessary land from Karl Schuster (owner of the Türken, and Frau Scharfenberg's grandfather), because the Türken property line went over close to Haus Wachenfeld. Schuster wouldn't sell, but he allowed Hitler to use this land for the driveway. After Schuster and his family were ousted from the Türken and the place was taken over by the RSD, this fenceline was moved and then later eliminated. But as Biber saw, its location could apparently still be seen from the air in 1945. Great find! (I arrowed this fenceline in the view below, along with the curving path that ran to that little hut behind Haus Wachenfeld.)

Oh, I almost forgot - yes, the Berghof roof had a large overhang out over the driveway, just about the width of the garage/terrace.
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osbvor1933akcu.jpg
period postcard
osbvor1933akcu.jpg (41.25 KiB) Viewed 1775 times
hartmann_map1.jpg
section of the Hartmann Map, 1941
hartmann_map1.jpg (69.84 KiB) Viewed 1775 times

muller1945
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#2642

Post by muller1945 » 16 Oct 2012, 22:55

You are quite right geoff about what i thought was another emergency exist to the berghof down the path from the quest house. If the other exist did come out from any where it would be straight down the slope so it would be level with the other emergency exist. The faint path at the front of the berghof was used by the ss guards i think to take a short cut down to the other path by the guard hut, tho i think they wouldnt use it when hitler was there, but just a guess. If you look at the berghof book by arndt you can see a faint path in the snow.


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Steve Hoog
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#2643

Post by Steve Hoog » 16 Oct 2012, 23:37

What a great amount of information in the last two days guys, I have really enjoyed it!

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Johnnyrocket
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#2644

Post by Johnnyrocket » 16 Oct 2012, 23:43

I agree—this Forum and this thread in particular has the worlds foremost experts participating.

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Biber
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#2645

Post by Biber » 17 Oct 2012, 22:10

Geoff Walden wrote: My friend, I think you have really hit on something new here ... something that I have never considered before, anyway.

Well I'll be! I'm glad I was able to contribute something new.

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sobel
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#2646

Post by sobel » 19 Oct 2012, 14:12

Geoff Walden wrote:
b14ck wrote:Ok guys i found another couple of pictures of the litte hut above the Berghof/Wachenfeld anyone else have any?
Image
Image

Hi all,

I am just back today from 5 days on the Obersalzberg. I again visited the site where that little hut was located, and this time I saw the objects that muller1945 posted - http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1708757. The area was not as overgrown this time I was there. I don't know if this concrete slab and the pipe and rebar are part of that hut, but they are in the general area. There are also several pipes around there that are the bottoms of fence posts (guard fence) that were cut off - you can also see some of guard fencing around there. This pipe by the concrete piece may also have been part of the guard fence. It looks like the guard fence ran very close to that hut.

I took the comparison photo to show the location. You can't get the same view as this period photo (which I believe was posted by Ernie Primeau earlier). The period photo was taken from a window of the Berghof (or Haus Wachenfeld, depending on when this photo was taken) ... if I had backed up any further when I took my photo, I would have fallen off the top of the retaining wall. :milwink:

I have arrowed the remains of the little path (full of leaves) and also the flat area where the hut sat.
Attached an image from Life which I have posted on another thread, just noticed in the picture, what appears to the hut in question, any ideas?

regards
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hut 2.JPG
hut 2.JPG (118.17 KiB) Viewed 1646 times
tree.JPG

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Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#2647

Post by Geoff Walden » 19 Oct 2012, 16:36

That looks like the hut to me, and you're right (other post) - that's the Bormann tree at the right side of the drive.

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sobel
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#2648

Post by sobel » 19 Oct 2012, 16:50

Geoff Walden wrote:That looks like the hut to me, and you're right (other post) - that's the Bormann tree at the right side of the drive.
Thanks thought it was both the hut and tree!

regards

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Annelie
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#2649

Post by Annelie » 19 Oct 2012, 17:24

A lot of those huts are used to store wood as someone previously pointed out.
You can still see them all over the area.

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Cor
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#2650

Post by Cor » 22 Oct 2012, 19:26

Here's a image from my visit to the obersalzberg of the goringhugl combined with an old pic of the same place.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/81006941
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goerhugl4.jpg

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*NL*
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#2651

Post by *NL* » 23 Oct 2012, 01:35

Well done Cor, you have outdone yourself here. It has become a great "now and then" combination.
Maybe it might be an idea to make this, and the original image into an animated gif with an interval of 2 or 3 seconds.
In any case, super work !

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Cor
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#2652

Post by Cor » 26 Oct 2012, 18:51

*NL* wrote:Well done Cor, you have outdone yourself here. It has become a great "now and then" combination.
Maybe it might be an idea to make this, and the original image into an animated gif with an interval of 2 or 3 seconds.
In any case, super work !
hmm in the past i was really handy with tools like gif animator or flash, now i've not the knowledge that i used to have, but indeed its a good idea and maybe i remember something.

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Annelie
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#2653

Post by Annelie » 01 Nov 2012, 01:51

Does anyone know what these were? They are under the highway/road back from parking lot (where gift stores are).
Decided to explore but couldn't figure out what they were, perhaps storage for vehicles?
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under highway.jpg
Obersalzberg
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Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#2654

Post by Geoff Walden » 01 Nov 2012, 10:04

Hi Annelie,

That's the coal bunker, where coal was delivered, stored, and distibuted for the main Obersalzberg heating plant at the SS Kaserne, and other building heating systems that used coal. Delivery trucks dumped their load through the roof (off the road above) into hoppers, and smaller trucks then drove into the openings you see here, to load from the hoppers in the ceiling and then deliver their loads to the various Obersalzberg buildings.

http://thirdreichruins.com/miscbldgs.htm#koksbunker

There was also an entrance in the left-hand truck opening to the Hintereck tunnel system in the hill behind, but that entrance has been walled up.

Geoff

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Annelie
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#2655

Post by Annelie » 01 Nov 2012, 13:49

Hi Geoff,

Thanks, I did see your photos but somehow never connected the two were the same ones, I guess from
my having to go under the road to see them. Actually I only found them by accident, sometimes go
off road and just explore. Seems like a strange but practical way of storing the coal.

Thanks again
Annelie

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