Berghof Obersalzberg
- Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Steve is correct. All real estate, tangible properties, and intangible properties such as the copyright to Mein Kampf, that belonged to Adolf Hitler, now belong to the Free State of Bavaria. Over the years, there have been various people who have tried to claim Hitler's "estate," but without luck.
Most of the Obersalzberg properties that were bought up by Martin Bormann using Nazi funds (also Göring's small property) now belong to the Free State of Bavaria as well. The most notable exception is the Hotel zum Türken and its lot, which were repurchased by the heirs after the war. There are other parcels that were then in the Obersalzberg holdings, but are now apparently private property, such as the Antenberg farm (where the Theaterhalle ruins are now). Oh, and Albert Speer's house near the edge of the Obersalzberg area - it's private property now (not belonging to Speer heirs, though). Also, Bormann bought up the Scharitzkehl valley and the Gasthaus there, but I believe this area has also reverted to private ownership.
Most of the Obersalzberg properties that were bought up by Martin Bormann using Nazi funds (also Göring's small property) now belong to the Free State of Bavaria as well. The most notable exception is the Hotel zum Türken and its lot, which were repurchased by the heirs after the war. There are other parcels that were then in the Obersalzberg holdings, but are now apparently private property, such as the Antenberg farm (where the Theaterhalle ruins are now). Oh, and Albert Speer's house near the edge of the Obersalzberg area - it's private property now (not belonging to Speer heirs, though). Also, Bormann bought up the Scharitzkehl valley and the Gasthaus there, but I believe this area has also reverted to private ownership.
Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Just the sort of comment which re-inforces the "Brown Tourists" who may well lay wreaths at the very spot where "grofaz"! met his end, and one of the major reasons why such sites were obliterated by subsequent administrations.Paulheald wrote:I find the whole subject fascinating and wonder if, when the Germans get over their AH guilt phobia, they might excavate the Berghof site as an historical monument. I queried earlier on in this thread if the steps from the driveway to the entrance of the Berghof might still be there buried under rubble and earth. I think that I received a response from Geoff Walden saying that this was a strong possibility.
On a similar subject, but on another thread "The Reichkanzlei", a firm of Italian architects have drawn up a magnificent set of drawings of the Bunkers. The rationale being that this would be a vastly interesting tourist attraction, even if only partially restored. My guide during my last visit was roundly cursing the Russians and the DDR for flattening the site. He reckoned that he could charge 200 Euros a pop for an underground tour of the Bunker site and that there would be a queue down to the Brandenburg Gate! Likewise I am sure that if there were something other than a notice board and a lot of vegetation, the partially restored Berghof site would be another big tourist attraction.
I think that the Germans are starting to get over their AH guilt phobia, because I see that there is a book just out entitled "I'm Back". It is a lampoon based upon the supposition that AH went into a coma in 1945 and woke up in 2011. Apparently he was not at all pleased with what he saw, nor was he welcomed with open arms. So the Germans are starting to laugh at themselves, at long last!
Gröfaz — German soldiers' derogatory acronym for Größter Feldherr aller Zeiten, a title initially publicized by Nazi propaganda to refer to Adolf Hitler during the early war years; ( The Greatest military leader of all time)
Just a thought
Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Glossary of German military termssobel wrote:
Gröfaz — German soldiers' derogatory acronym for Größter Feldherr aller Zeiten, a title initially publicized by Nazi propaganda to refer to Adolf Hitler during the early war years; ( The Greatest military leader of all time)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_o ... tary_terms
Greetings from the Wide Brown.
Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Hello Sobel, I think that your comments about "Brown Tourists" are possibly well stated. However, I wonder if there are that many "Brown Tourists" - I would think that there are far more, like myself, that are fascinated with modern military history. I was born before WW2 in UK; I endured being bombed - "Doodle Bugged" and Rocketed by our German friends. However, I am fascinated with what went-on on the then enemy side. Hence the ambience of the Berghof is something very special to me because it was here that the enemy leader made all his most important decisions. Accordingly I would like to see some remains there other a notice board and a few lumps of concrete. Also, just a thought.
Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Paulheald wrote:Hello Sobel, I think that your comments about "Brown Tourists" are possibly well stated. However, I wonder if there are that many "Brown Tourists" - I would think that there are far more, like myself, that are fascinated with modern military history. I was born before WW2 in UK; I endured being bombed - "Doodle Bugged" and Rocketed by our German friends. However, I am fascinated with what went-on on the then enemy side. Hence the ambience of the Berghof is something very special to me because it was here that the enemy leader made all his most important decisions. Accordingly I would like to see some remains there other a notice board and a few lumps of concrete. Also, just a thought.
Hello Paulhead, thanks for the polite reply to my comments, and I offer you my respect for having lived through the "Real thing". My comments were not meant to denigrate anyone who has a genuine interest in the history of the time, (I also do, otherwise I wouldn't be a member on this site). My comments were directed at those who may have a degree of "Nostalgia" about that particular regime. Ofcourse had the original edificies (Berghof/fuhrerbunker etc) been left or restored then there could be an argument they had historical importance, but in the end they do not. They could of course be replicated but then they would be nothing more that a third reich theme park. Comments regarding people queing back to the Brandenburger Tor (I was there in 1972 and walked the lenght of Willhelm Strasse from the Pariser Platz, turned right into Vosse Strasse, quite a long walk!) suggest that there may be more "Brown tourists" than we would like to think
Best regards
Alex K
- Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Hi Alex,
I have to agree with Paul. I think you are mistaking simple historical tourism for Brown tourism at these sites that have not been preserved in their entirety – there is a big difference! I think I can safely say that I have most likely spent more time visiting the Obersalzberg than anyone else who posts in this thread, except one person (who knows who he is) and I have never met or talked with anyone on the Obersalzberg who was visiting there because of a nostalgia or admiration for Hitler or the Third Reich. Not to say there aren’t any – of course there are - but they are certainly unobtrusive – they don’t call attention to themselves. There simply are not hordes of Brown Tourists wandering around the Obersalzberg, or the Berghof site itself. The hordes of visitors are, in the majority, genuine historical tourists (or even plain old tourists, just along for the bus ride).
I know this has been debated ad nauseam on this forum, and I have no intention of getting into a rehash of all the same old opinions, but I will just say this, which I don’t believe has been pointed out here before: the Bavarian Government says the Berghof site does have historical importance today, as expressed recently by the head of the Bavarian Monument Protection office. That's from the Bavarian Government itself. And I'll leave it at that ...
Best regards,
Geoff
I have to agree with Paul. I think you are mistaking simple historical tourism for Brown tourism at these sites that have not been preserved in their entirety – there is a big difference! I think I can safely say that I have most likely spent more time visiting the Obersalzberg than anyone else who posts in this thread, except one person (who knows who he is) and I have never met or talked with anyone on the Obersalzberg who was visiting there because of a nostalgia or admiration for Hitler or the Third Reich. Not to say there aren’t any – of course there are - but they are certainly unobtrusive – they don’t call attention to themselves. There simply are not hordes of Brown Tourists wandering around the Obersalzberg, or the Berghof site itself. The hordes of visitors are, in the majority, genuine historical tourists (or even plain old tourists, just along for the bus ride).
I know this has been debated ad nauseam on this forum, and I have no intention of getting into a rehash of all the same old opinions, but I will just say this, which I don’t believe has been pointed out here before: the Bavarian Government says the Berghof site does have historical importance today, as expressed recently by the head of the Bavarian Monument Protection office. That's from the Bavarian Government itself. And I'll leave it at that ...
Best regards,
Geoff
Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Thank you, Sobel, for your most interesting comments on "Brown Tourists". Come to think of it when I was at school (a very long time ago!) we had a school doctor who had not only attended "Reich Partei Tag" in Nuremburg, but also had visited the Berghof and had seen Hitler there when he used to come down and meet selected visitors under Bormann's Tree. I suppose that it was this doctor's vivid description of the rally and the magnificence of the Berghof that sparked my childish interest and curiosity. Hence, when I eventually got around to visiting the Berghof a couple of years ago, I expected to see lots more other than what remains today - which is just about zilch. OK matter closed on Brown Tourists!
Earlier on I had pestered all and sundry on this thread about the location of Bormann's Tree. This was because my school doctor had painted a vivid word picture of Hitler, surrounded by the magnificence of the Obersalzberg, standing under the shade of this tree and greeting his selected visitors. Hence, when I went to find this tree on my visit, nobody knew anything about it at the Documentation Centre; so this was another disappointment for me!
Earlier on I had pestered all and sundry on this thread about the location of Bormann's Tree. This was because my school doctor had painted a vivid word picture of Hitler, surrounded by the magnificence of the Obersalzberg, standing under the shade of this tree and greeting his selected visitors. Hence, when I went to find this tree on my visit, nobody knew anything about it at the Documentation Centre; so this was another disappointment for me!
Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Thankyou both Geoff and Paul for your comments. With regards to the obersalsberg, I do indeed acknowledge Geoff's level of expertise as noted on his website, and accept his comments and facts, no more brown tourists for me!
With regards to the Bormann tree, I do believe that it was cut down but the root stock remained, it now appears as an somewhat insignificant bush in the same place, modern images have been posted possibly in this thread and a parallel thread, now locked.
regards
With regards to the Bormann tree, I do believe that it was cut down but the root stock remained, it now appears as an somewhat insignificant bush in the same place, modern images have been posted possibly in this thread and a parallel thread, now locked.
regards
Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
did hitler not left his belongings to the bavarian state in his will, and is that not the reason why they are the owners.Rornum wrote:Hi all,
Is it Bavarian or Federal property or could an individual claim it?....
and like geoff said earlier Brown Tourists are so excaggerated. Ive never seen them in all the places i visited related to the third reich. Only people who has an interest for the period visit those sites.
- Steve Hoog
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
It wouldn't surprise me a bit to see the Documentation Center spread down the hill in the near future. I am grateful to have seen it pre tourist’ized.
- Alpenfestung
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Speaking of digging things up ...............I came across this tile, found on the Obersalzberg in 1975 - the person I got it from said his father found it, and had reason to believe it came from "Hitler's house".
I know rubble from various buildings was dumped in different spots up there, and I think I saw a picture of a similar tile from the SS Kaserne somewhere on the internet - I can't find it on this forum, so it could have been on a different website.
The square tile measures about 15x15cm (6"x 6"), there is a thick layer of cement on the back so I can't see any markings.
Any thoughts on this, has anybody seen similar tiles?
Thanks,
Peter
I know rubble from various buildings was dumped in different spots up there, and I think I saw a picture of a similar tile from the SS Kaserne somewhere on the internet - I can't find it on this forum, so it could have been on a different website.
The square tile measures about 15x15cm (6"x 6"), there is a thick layer of cement on the back so I can't see any markings.
Any thoughts on this, has anybody seen similar tiles?
Thanks,
Peter
"Change is easy.....improvement is far more difficult"
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
For what it's worth, here is a photo of your humble correspondent - complete with Sex Pistols T shirt - on the Platterhof observation deck, c. 1978/9.
Kein Irrtum ist so groß, der nicht seinen Zuhörer hat.
- Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Hi Mannheim,
You can still stand right there, although the stone parapet is gone and where you were standing is now paving bricks. It's the bus stop now. Hey, we need a "then-and-now" pic!
You can still stand right there, although the stone parapet is gone and where you were standing is now paving bricks. It's the bus stop now. Hey, we need a "then-and-now" pic!
- ghostsoldier
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
And don't forget the Sex Pistols!
Rob
Rob
"Even God cannot change the past. "
-Agathon (448 BC - 400 BC)
-Agathon (448 BC - 400 BC)
- Johnnyrocket
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg
Original period image of the Berghof.
Source unknown.
Johnny R.
Source unknown.
Johnny R.
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