Berghof Obersalzberg

[PavelH]

Of course that I have heard about operation Foxley, but I think that a sniper could "shoot", round 10 o`clock in the morning, how many times he wants ..... seems that the German guard was really dedicated to his boss.
Never ever heard about a single morning walk on the OSB

[Geoff Walden]

Agreed ... kinda difficult to shoot Hitler on a morning walk, when he didn't leave his bedroom at the Berghof until about noon.

My own opinion - "Foxley" might have had a chance of success in the early 30s, although I doubt the shooter could have escaped ... but after increased security around 1936, and especially in the 40s - practically no chance. I think the British realized this, and this was the real reason they didn't try it.

[British Sapper]

I think there was also some talk about landing troops on the Gutshof golf course.

I think those American women golfers would have frightened any Allied landings on there.

[*NL*]

In reply to the turning circle at the Berghof mentioned a page earlier.

We must take in account that the slope is very steep up there, and we must take in account that those cars are not the cars
of to what we are used to nowadays.

They might have been the size of 3 Smart cars of today, or the size of 2 normal European city cars of today
The weight might have been between 1.500 and 2.000 kilogram.
No power steering in those days, well.... to turn a 2.000 kg car on such a small circle might have needed muscle power of a
full platoon of soldiers haha ha
And the turning circle of those cars might have been the size of the whole village of Berchtesgaden..

It is not as easy as you think

[*NL*]

Geoff, in reply to that link you gave to tunnel photo's of Mittelbau - Dora.
I clicked the link, and saw that i had written that i would post pictures of the camp itselve.
I still had no time to do so, but i managed to post the lot of 224 pictures to Panoramio.
Right no i am posting pictures of Sachsenhausen, and other concentration camps.
When i am done at panoramio, i will make a start to post them here as well at the forum (smaller version).
But if you would like to have a look in advance of this forum, the full picture serie of Mittelbau - Dora
is posted here :
http://www.panoramio.com/user/359661/ta ... elbau-Dora

Best regards again,

Hans.

[Max]

In reply to the turning circle at the Berghof mentioned a page earlier.

We must take in account that the slope is very steep up there, and we must take in account that those cars are not the cars
of to what we are used to nowadays.

They might have been the size of 3 Smart cars of today, or the size of 2 normal European city cars of today
The weight might have been between 1.500 and 2.000 kilogram.
No power steering in those days, well.... to turn a 2.000 kg car on such a small circle might have needed muscle power of a
full platoon of soldiers haha ha
And the turning circle of those cars might have been the size of the whole village of Berchtesgaden..

It is not as easy as you think

The Mercedes-Benz 770 W07(K) Grosser weighed: 2700 kg, gross weight - 3500 kg; chassis: 1950 kg
and had a turning radius of 7.05m
See http://www.autogallery.org.ru/m/mb77007.htm for full specifications
I agree it would have been tricky but not impossible to turn such a car on the space available - as I demonstrated
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1886719
The paved area in front of the steps was near level in the direction of the slope [North]but was inclined toward the drive [East] and had a kerb to indicate the edge as can be seen in the images I posted above.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1886824
I wonder if the area today appears to be [and is] much steeper and smaller than it was in the 30s and 40s due to the rubble that has been dumped there; thus giving a false impression of the difficulty of the reversing of direction manoeuvre.
It seems unlikely that the residence of the national leader could not have properly accommodated visiting cars.

Cheers
Max

[Steve Hoog]

Max, being that a small portion of the drive is still there near the old garage door area or maybe it's even part of the garage floor, I would guess the grade down to the road is relatively the same.

[N.C. Wyeth]

About turning one of those staff cars around in that driveway . . . I've been there too, within the past decade . . . seen the same photos of that driveway you have all seen as well . . . and driven quite a few vehicles manufactured during that era.

If you have ever had the pleasure of driving [any] car manufactured at that time - worm-gear steering and all [not "power=steering", remember!] . . . I think you would know - right away - that making any kind of [complete] turn at the bottom of those steps to the Berghof would have been unquestionably impossible - especially in the vehicles of such size that were often photographed there.

[Max]

About turning one of those staff cars around in that driveway . . . I've been there too, within the past decade . . . seen the same photos of that driveway you have all seen as well . . . and driven quite a few vehicles manufactured during that era.

If you have ever had the pleasure of driving [any] car manufactured at that time - worm-gear steering and all [not "power=steering", remember!] . . . I think you would know - right away - that making any kind of [complete] turn at the bottom of those steps to the Berghof would have been unquestionably impossible - especially in the vehicles of such size that were often photographed there.

No one is suggesting a complete circle turn on a hard over lock BUT, what about a manoeuvre similar to the one I suggested earlier?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1886719
Remember also that they were real men in those days; they didn't need any woosey power steering
Cheers
Max

[Annelie]

Don't know why this even bothered to get me thinking about it but
I tried looking to see how long these Mercedes were in 1941 and all I
could find was between 180 - 189 inches....that is 15ft plus

Going to check the plans on the property that must be somewhere on this thread
to see if maybe further up the drive they made a concession for this?

Not only many times were there a couple of cars to contend with but some photos
show at least half a dozen and all pointing down the drive...just makes me want to
know how they did it

Just looked at the link Max provided and according to that the cars were in excess of 18 ft.

[Biber]

About turning one of those staff cars around in that driveway . . . I've been there too, within the past decade . . . seen the same photos of that driveway you have all seen as well . . . and driven quite a few vehicles manufactured during that era.

If you have ever had the pleasure of driving [any] car manufactured at that time - worm-gear steering and all [not "power=steering", remember!] . . . I think you would know - right away - that making any kind of [complete] turn at the bottom of those steps to the Berghof would have been unquestionably impossible - especially in the vehicles of such size that were often photographed there.

No one is suggesting a complete circle turn on a hard over lock BUT, what about a manoeuvre similar to the one I suggested earlier?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1886719
Remember also that they were real men in those days; they didn't need any woosey power steering
Cheers
Max

Your right, turning a car around in the driveway near the steps is a much more manly thing to do, unless of course, in the process of doing so you manage to send Hitler's sedan over the embankment.

Having seen the films and photos of cars in that driveway and the relative size of both, it is my opinion that it is simply foolish to think that they did such a thing.

[*NL*]

Turning around a vehicle that size and weight on such a small spot has nothing to do with as earlier suggested here above
with beeing a real macho man. Have a look at the photo's, their drivers upper bodies where tiny.
In my army days i have driven 1,5 and 3 ton trucks with no power steering, and i can therefore inform you that is impossible
to make such a circle from a stand-still.
From a stand-still, it is impossible to turn the wheel, only when picking up a little speed of lets say 5 to 10 km p/h you are
able to turn the steering wheel around.
Oke, enough about that, but more to the point, why havn't we found an answer yet to solve the puzzle

[Max]

More that you probably want to know about Hitler's Grossers.
http://propagander2.tripod.com/hm.html

I agree that it would have been tricky turning this monster around at the Berghof steps.
Cheers
Max

Hitler's Parade Car.JPG

[Geoff Walden]

I am currently re-reading Ziemke; Battle for Berlin (1968), and I stumbled over something I would like verification for. On page 85, he writes: “The Russians were drawing close to the army communications centre at Zossen and could be there almost any hour [April 20]. The only comparable installation (my italics) in Germany was the one in the Berghof complex outside Berchtesgaden in the Bavarian Alps. There, throughout the war, Hitler had vacationed every year with Eva Braun … and an elaborate communications system had been set up for his use at those times … Hitler had indicated in late March [1945] that he regarded them as the best alternative command post if Zossen were bombed out and lost.”

I have never heard of anything just remotely comparable to Zossen in terms of sophistication in communication equipment and would like to pick you brains as to whether this statement from Ziemke actually holds water?
Thanks, Dan

I believe I stumbled on the source for this, although it doesn't really deal with communications. In Gen. Walter Warlimont's book Inside Hitler's Headquarters (1964 ed., pages 507-512) is a transcript of part of a briefing conference that took place in the Führerbunker in Berlin on 23 March 1945:

Von Below: May we stop the smokescreen, my Führer, when you are not at the Obersalzberg? The smoke screen is put up every time we go there and we're running short of acid. [This is an interesting statement on its own.]

Hitler: Yes, but that's the end of everything, we must be clear about that. That's the last protection we have. The bunker will be alright and I don't mind about my house but the complete set-up will go. If Zossen gets shot up one day where shall we go then? One heavy attack on Zossen and that's the end of it.

I do believe this is the source of Ziemcke's statement (especially since he mentioned late March 1945), although he changed this to mean a communications system, when Hitler was actually talking only about bunker protection for his headquarters.

There is another really interesting statement a couple paragraphs down (this is on page 510):

Burgdorf [still talking about bunkers]: I would like to refer to the layout at Air Fleet Reich, which I once visited. If I'd had any idea that a thing like that existed in the neighbourhood of Berlin I'd have said it's lunacy. It could take OKW, OKH and your own staff, my Führer. Then at Wannsee - that's the old anti-aircraft school - they've got a vast bunker; five feet of concrete on top and four floors, one below ground and three above. I saw that by chance.

Hitler: No one's ever told me about this.

Me either! Burgdorf's "Air Fleet Reich" bunker system must be the Luftwaffe bunker area in what is now the Werder Wildpark in or near Potsdam (I've never been there myself and don't know what there may be to see there, other than a couple of Winkeltürme). But a big bunker system at Wannsee, I've not heard of at all. Anybody else?

[friend_of_Obersalzberg]

Me either! Burgdorf's "Air Fleet Reich" bunker system must be the Luftwaffe bunker area in what is now the Werder Wildpark in or near Potsdam (I've never been there myself and don't know what there may be to see there, other than a couple of Winkeltürme). But a big bunker system at Wannsee, I've not heard of at all. Anybody else?

Yes

Servus my friend -and all others,

the Airfleet bunker must be the Großer Kurfürst Bunker at Werder from the Luftkriegsschule III. During the war it was the HQ of the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe, so you are right. This bunker still exists, but all as i read, it´s a Bundeswehr area with no access. The bunker must be in or better under the Große Entenfängerberg. Infos in English here: http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/sites/w/wildpark/
Wannsee Bunker is the Hochbunker Heckeshorn. Built 1943, HQ of the Stab of the Luftflotte Reich (former Luftflotte Mitte). Infos and Photos at http://berliner-unterwelten.de/hochbunk ... 327.0.html, only in German.

I read today in the Berchtesgadener Anzeiger, the BAHNHOF (Train Station) Berchtesgaden is FOR SALE. Anyone interested )?

Greetings
Ralf