Berghof Obersalzberg

[*NL*]

Hoi Annelie, i spend 7 different holidays in the region of the Berchtesgadener Land/Salzburg, and only met him during one of those holidays which was during high summer. The first time, i met his wife who was staying alone at the parking lot next to their camper or caravan (can't remember which) She told me that she expected her man back in the next hour or so, but i had no time left so i left, later during the same holiday i met him at the OBS on the grounds of the Berghof, we had a little chat, and told him about this forum, and wrote the adress down for him. What i still remember is that he is also knowledgeable on Berlin as well. The other times i visited the region i have not seen him. Regarding your visits in October, well i think you are to late in the season then. He loves to chat with visitors, and they are all gone by then.















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[Annelie]

Thankyou for the reply NL.

I suppose your correct that the reason I have never seen anyone
is because of the period of time I was there. Too bad since I am
sure what he would say would be more interesting than what the tour
guides have to say.

I remember one guide taking us up to Kehlstein on that bus
drove right by the Turken and Hitlers house but she never said a word that
we had just passed these spots..
In fact the only thing she said was that she believed that Speer got off too lightly.
She was an American living in Salzburg to be in the music industry there.

I thought that very bizarre as there were American Veterans on the bus who
wanted one last time to visit the places they remembered.

[tunix0]

Hi Annelie,

as NL mentioned, he is not always there. He comes from the Netherlands and probably makes a few weeks holiday in Berchtesgaden each year? This was my fourth holiday there and I met him for the first time. But it's wonderful to meet such people instead of the usual tourists, which hardly know the history and the place. I also met his wife because she stayed in the camper and called him to dinner when we talked.

And I remember that you once asked for the bird houses on Mooslahnerkopf. These are not there anymore.

The remains of the tea house were unfortunately poured over with concrete, because young people have probably thrown stones over the new safety fence and thus caused damage (said Henk). The fence was built in 2016 on my last visit.

Here are a few photos...

[Annelie]

Thank you for the photos and explanation.

Too bad that tourist without respect for property
have made it come to this.

Yes, I did ask about bird houses since I first noticed them in
Hitlers time then again in photo many many years later and of
course wondered who did this and why I suppose.

Again it must be because the person has passed on or moved.
When your there for a time and see it like those who live there
its a wonderful place with many great eating establishments and
bakeries etc. The activities one can do in those mountains is everything I likem
its no wonder its been an preferred tourist destination for over hundred years.

[headwest]

Hi

thank you for the recent pics and info! I was looking at the new pics here and wondering if any of the current trees there now were witness trees? do any match up to period photos?

I am very interested in the US Civil war as well and live close to Gettysburg and one thing the park service has done there is mark "witness" trees, trees there during the battle. So that term means that and was wondering about this with the current pics vs period ones

thanks!

[Geoff Walden]

I suppose your correct that the reason I have never seen anyone
is because of the period of time I was there. Too bad since I am
sure what he would say would be more interesting than what the tour
guides have to say.

Hi Annelie,
It depends on who your tour guide is!

I'm like you - normally I go in spring or fall, to avoid (1) heavy/high vegetation, and (2) crowds. Both were terrible when I was there last month - the crowds at the Doku Center / Kehlstein bus area shocked me - people were parking all over the adjacent streets and roads, even one km or so up the Scharitzkehlstrasse. (I only went in July this time because it was a special occasion.)
I also have only met Henk once, even though I have visited the Berghof site probably 50 times at least. The time I met Henk, I was guiding a tour and he was speaking to people, so I had only the chance to introduce myself and say "hi".

Hi
thank you for the recent pics and info! I was looking at the new pics here and wondering if any of the current trees there now were witness trees? do any match up to period photos?
I am very interested in the US Civil war as well and live close to Gettysburg and one thing the park service has done there is mark "witness" trees, trees there during the battle. So that term means that and was wondering about this with the current pics vs period ones
thanks!

Hi headwest,

That's an interesting idea. I have seen such witness trees at Dachau (and a historic tree stump at Buchenwald), but I never thought to look for any on the Obersalzberg, except for "Bormann's Tree," which is not really a recognizable tree any longer. I wonder, for example, if there are any remains of this tree or the small stone curb at its base? This tree is prominent in 1945 photos taken by GIs (like those seen here visiting the Berghof ruin). I have never thought to search for any trace of this tree.

[Annelie]

Hi Geoff, I wasn't speaking on your tour of course as I know
there is no other person who knows so much about this area and history
than you

The tree subject is interesting but we have hashed the Bormann tree some
time ago and it was determined there is nothing left....of which I can also
say. I looked several times when I was there to see if perhaps an off spring
of that tree was there and I couldn't find anything.

Would be interesting to note of other trees in the area like for instance at the
look out point where the bird house used to be.

So love this thread

[Geoff Walden]

Hi Geoff, I wasn't speaking on your tour of course as I know
there is no other person who knows so much about this area and history
than you

Hi Annelie,
Maybe we should say - no other American.

The tree subject is interesting but we have hashed the Bormann tree some
time ago and it was determined there is nothing left....of which I can also
say. I looked several times when I was there to see if perhaps an off spring
of that tree was there and I couldn't find anything.

I did have to search for a couple minutes, but I did re-find the remains of Bormann's Tree in July. It is only various shoots growing up from a central position - no stump that I have ever seen - but these shoots definitely have linden leaves, and they are in the right place, so I don't know why they would not be the remains of Bormann's Tree. The shoots were not as high this time as other times I have been there - when they were higher than my head (maybe this was Sept-Oct).

Would be interesting to note of other trees in the area like for instance at the
look out point where the bird house used to be.

Yes, I wonder if that is actually a witness tree ... we "photo explorers" here in this thread should start looking into headwest's suggestion. I bet we can positively identify some OSB witness trees that are still there. If there are trees that appear in 1945 photos of Dachau that can still be ID'd today, I bet we can find some on the OSB. Good idea, headwest!

[tunix0]

Hi

thank you for the recent pics and info! I was looking at the new pics here and wondering if any of the current trees there now were witness trees? do any match up to period photos?

thanks!

According to Henk, the trees on Mooslahnerkopf are still the original ones of those days. I do not know if thats true. I'll do some photo comparisons. Only the tea house was destroyed, so it could be that the trees are still original.

It is also interesting how the whole Obersalzberg area is peppered with bomb craters. I walked with my family many ways and if you look closely, craters are everywhere.

[tunix0]

I'm like you - normally I go in spring or fall, to avoid (1) heavy/high vegetation, and (2) crowds. Both were terrible when I was there last month - the crowds at the Doku Center / Kehlstein bus area shocked me - people were parking all over the adjacent streets and roads, even one km or so up the Scharitzkehlstrasse. (I only went in July this time because it was a special occasion.)

Yes Geoff,

the number of tourists also shocked me this year. But most of them walk around like ants and all just want to go to the Eagle's Nest.

But at the Berghof there were only a few people, mostly I could park my car directly at the Berghof or slightly below Hotel Turken, where the Lindeweg leads to the golf course. I think many do not know this street.

It is also extremely bad at Königssee and there are first press reports about the "madness". One day the queue of tourists once stood completely through the village street, just to buy tickets. Waiting times of 2 hours should be scheduled.

https://www.pnp.de/lokales/berchtesgade ... bleme.html

So if you want to visit Kehlsteinhaus or other places, then you should always be there early in the morning. Most tourists sleep long and still enjoy breakfast. Or you can visit the places after the last bus and ferry connections, for example by bike. I was completely alone on the top of Kehlstein by bike, only a beverage dealer was in the tunnel. And ride your bike over the big window of the Berghof is also something special (don't worry, I just pushed it on the site).

I hope I do not bother with my pictures. Here is another small selection.

[tunix0]

The Kehlsteinhaus we visited with the first bus. Thus, hardly any people were upstairs and we could visit everything in peace. And we decided this time for cloudy weather, so that our children are up in the clouds. It is a nice experience, as the clouds pull over the hilltop.

And again some pics...

[tunix0]

Hi

thank you for the recent pics and info! I was looking at the new pics here and wondering if any of the current trees there now were witness trees? do any match up to period photos?

thanks!

According to Henk, the trees on Mooslahnerkopf are still the original ones of those days. I do not know if thats true. I'll do some photo comparisons. Only the tea house was destroyed, so it could be that the trees are still original.

I did a quick comparison. The trees to the left of the viewing platform match those in the old photos. Maybe they are still the original trees, because at that time they were still quite young. Here are pictures from the collection of Harry von Gebhardt for comparison.

[Annelie]

I only went twice to Kehlsteinhaus as it was not so much interesting.
Like others I went early.

Did however use this destination for hiking several times without going inside Kehlstein....there is an trail from
the bottom to hike all way to the top. Its great.
Once we left early and it was sunny, then started to rain and by
the time we got to the top it was snowing. Quite an experience
and well worth the hike. Always nice to see an area like the locals
as you get far more from the area.

Would be nice to think of the trees still at the lookout that they are
the orginal...imagine what they could have heard and witness if they had
ears and eyes

[headwest]

Thanks!

good Sleuth work there as well, they do look like they are the same!

I always found that very interesting how Gettysburg National Park Service would find these tree's and confirm etc. Now that battle was in 1863, and so the tree's are few and far between but they are there. one ranger explained that while rocks, and landscape, etc, stream may be the same the tree's are living etc. Hence Living Witnesses to that time

This era is much closer in time, and alot of tree's will live a long time depending on the type. I just noticed this in this awesome thread. in that area the pines looked similar. Having been interested in the borman Tree Geoff had found, I thought it might be possible these tree's(and others elsewhere) are true Witness trees.

Great stuff!

[Geoff Walden]

the number of tourists also shocked me this year. But most of them walk around like ants and all just want to go to the Eagle's Nest.
It is also extremely bad at Königssee and there are first press reports about the "madness". One day the queue of tourists once stood completely through the village street, just to buy tickets. Waiting times of 2 hours should be scheduled.

You are so right, Christian! A friend and I walked past the Malerwinkl to "Eva Braun's Beach" at the base of the Königsbachfall, and I never saw so many people! The other time I did this walk, I saw only one person past the Malerwinkl ... this time there must have been 20! Diving off the cliffs, partying, usw. A few days ago the rescue service had to come look for a couple youths from Poland who were drunk and had gotten separated from the rest of their group and became lost in that area. Madness, indeed!

Here are a few pics to illustrate how high the weeds were - these are at the Antenberg camp and the (former) entrance to the Antenberg tunnel (which is normally easy to see).