Berghof Obersalzberg

[Mannheim]

We all know Adolf used to like his walk from the Berghof to the Mooslahnerkopf but I have read that he often had a car pick him up for the return journey. I've often wondered where the car picked him up. Surely it wouldn't have driven down the track? Or did it pick him up near what is now the twelfth/thirteenth (I can't remember) hole on the golf course, i.e. pretty much where the track into the Mooslahnerkopf currently starts?

[British Sapper]

We all know Adolf used to like his walk from the Berghof to the Mooslahnerkopf but I have read that he often had a car pick him up for the return journey. I've often wondered where the car picked him up. Surely it wouldn't have driven down the track? Or did it pick him up near what is now the twelfth/thirteenth (I can't remember) hole on the golf course, i.e. pretty much where the track into the Mooslahnerkopf currently starts?

I would hazard a guess the pick up would have been at the Gutshof ? When we were working on the road that crosses the golf course in the mid 1970's and re-surfacing this road, we parked our vehicles in front of the Gutshof . The Skytop Lodge was still there back then.

[tunix0]

but for me, to know if the car was turned around in the driveway or not seems rather trivial - and not really worth the time to fret over. At one time I believed . . . but as time moves forward, I seem to be leaning the other way.

I never thought the question was trivial at all when I first inquired several years ago. It wasn't such a tremendously important
point but I for one look at designs of homes and seeing this was Hitlers home which had many guests I was bewildered
about it. No one else seemed to think much of the question but I am glad to see it became of interest to some.

I want to know every little detail I can about this history. Not to glorify but to know.

I like to know those "little things" as well. And here in this thread we have managed to discuss, dig deep, and unearth answers to several questions that are never addressed in books. You never know what folks will find!

Hi,

i tried again to find out more about the turnaround problems. First, I found the digital photo that I saw in the book by Rochus Misch. You can see everything better and the cutout is larger. Erich Kempka is definitely looking backwards, as if he is driving the car backwards.

(Hitler und König Boris, 1941 Stockfoto, Bild: 36998380 - Alamy)
https://www.alamy.de/stockfoto-hitler-u ... 98380.html

Then, in particular, I looked at the arrival of the polish foreign minister Jozef Beck in 1939. I found three photos on the internet that are quite interesting.

The first picture shows two Mercedes 770 shortly after the minister got out. Ordonnance officers are on either side of the first vehicle and the front officer seems to be walking toward the second car.

https://www.gettyimages.de/detail/nachr ... popup=true

In the second picture, the rear officer also walks to the second car, but the first car seems to have driven in the direction of the garage and is no longer visible. The second car is definitely the same, it's best seen on the snow on the tire. So it's not the first car that is backing up.

https://mostly-history.tumblr.com/post/ ... eceived-by

So were the cars driven into the garage so they were heated in the winter? Or did he drive forward so he could turn in front of the Berghof? But I can not imagine that with the snow on the driveway.

Unfortunately, in the third photo you do not see anything change in the cars either. The second officer has now arrived at the car.

(Ankunft der polnische Außenminister Josef Beck auf dem Obersalzberg, wo er von Adolf Hitler vor der Freitreppe der Berghof begrüßt wurde. Im Hintergrund der Chef des Protokolls Freiherr von Doernberg Stockfoto, Bild: 247118330 - Alamy)
https://www.alamy.de/ankunft-der-polnis ... 18330.html

I've seen many other videos and photos of arrivals or departures. Unfortunately, you can not see anywhere that the vehicles are turned. With the long Mercedes 770 it also looks really tight when it's in front of the stairs.

In the videos the cars always drive forward to the stairs. They usually wait until the guests are up. The cameras then wave to the guests, so you do not see how the cars drive. The video here is a good example:
https://www.pond5.com/de/stock-footage/ ... -1942.html

I'll keep looking for it, because it seems to be interesting.

Regards
Christian

[tunix0]

We all know Adolf used to like his walk from the Berghof to the Mooslahnerkopf but I have read that he often had a car pick him up for the return journey. I've often wondered where the car picked him up. Surely it wouldn't have driven down the track? Or did it pick him up near what is now the twelfth/thirteenth (I can't remember) hole on the golf course, i.e. pretty much where the track into the Mooslahnerkopf currently starts?

I would hazard a guess the pick up would have been at the Gutshof ? When we were working on the road that crosses the golf course in the mid 1970's and re-surfacing this road, we parked our vehicles in front of the Gutshof . The Skytop Lodge was still there back then.

Geoff has a great overview on his website. It shows the former way based on maps and photos. Under the heading "Unknown Spots I" he also shows how Hitler is collected by a car. But the exact location is unclear. It will probably be somewhere on today's golf course, because there were paths back then.


http://www.thirdreichruins.com/teehauswalk.htm

We were in the restaurant Hochlenzer and there hung a big photo of the air reconnaissance. I took a picture of it and compared it to Geoffs Unknown Spots I. It looks as if the car came from the Gutshof over the current golf course. In the aerial photo you can still see the old way which suits the photo from the Eva Braun's movies.

So I think that the vehicles were able to drive from the Gutshof to the vicinity of the tea house.

Even today a drivable path leads from the Guthof to the tea house through the forest next to the golf course. It was fixed and compacted so that the concrete mixers could come to the teahouse to pour concrete over it.

This route is well visible in Google Maps 3D:
https://goo.gl/maps/sCnaCZsrDMhQ8yoj7

Regards
Christian

[Max]

CAPTION
At the arrival of Hitler (still in the car) on the Berghof, Eva Braun leaves the scene because she was not allowed to appear publicly.
https://www.alamy.com/at-the-arrival-of ... edoptin%3D.

Is there anyone else who, like me, thinks that image has been flipped, or the caption should say that Hitler is leaving the Berghof?
The car would have had to be turned at the top with the passengers in it if it is an arrival [ or, dare I say, backed up the drive with passengers aboard}
Can anyone identify a feature that suggests the image has been flipped? [Uniforms? Car details? mountain in background?]
Image flipped for comparison

[Max]

i569651.jpg (33.55 KiB) Viewed 902 times

NOT at the Berghof, but shows that the Grosser was capable of a nimble 90 degree turn.

[avid21]

Hi Alvin,

Welcome to AHF!


Thanks very much for posting! I did not see that hole when I was there in July, and I guess you did not see it on your visits before, right? I did see this hole in 2001, but not since then (and it was not there in 1999-2000). Or maybe not exactly this same hole but a similar hole in the same area. In this photo I took in 2001, I don't remember which direction I was facing ... which would be the "front" and which the "back."
Berghofgarage2001.jpg
We read that the garage was entirely removed, but I do not think this is strictly true. I think they removed the front and the sides that were made of large stones, and the roof, but I think they left the back wall (concrete) in place. I think that's what we are seeing in this hole - part of the back wall and adjacent structures, with the gap maybe being a small part of space of the garage interior that has opened up by soil erosion. I doubt there is actually any big space down there where the interior of the garage was, because the area that was left after the front/side walls and roof removal was all filled in.

I agree with Annelie - it would certainly be great to lower a camera down in that hole!

Maybe Henk knows about this hole ...

Geoff

hi,
further to the pics posted by Alvin, and Geoffs comments, could this be the cavity into which the sunroom (original wachenfeld house) window was lowered. this would explain the timber board presence. My 3D currently does not depict the cavity, but it would be in line with the garage rear wall. Also refer to the pic showing the window lowered. can somebody confirm this.

[Annelie]

Isn't it amazing the architect who drew those plans never designed
an driveway to accommodate all the visitors that would have been.
Just doesn't make sense. They thought of everything except that?
Even for emergency purposes?

I think Geoff is correct we will probably never know the answer really.

[Geoff Walden]

Is there anyone else who, like me, thinks that image has been flipped, or the caption should say that Hitler is leaving the Berghof?
The car would have had to be turned at the top with the passengers in it if it is an arrival [ or, dare I say, backed up the drive with passengers aboard}
Can anyone identify a feature that suggests the image has been flipped? [Uniforms? Car details? mountain in background?]
Image flipped for comparison

Hi Max,
SS collar tabs and shoulder eagle positions, plus the rising ground to the right in the background, show that the photo had not been flipped.
So, how did the car get turned that way? I don't have a clue ...
Geoff

[Geoff Walden]

hi,
further to the pics posted by Alvin, and Geoffs comments, could this be the cavity into which the sunroom (original wachenfeld house) window was lowered. this would explain the timber board presence. My 3D currently does not depict the cavity, but it would be in line with the garage rear wall. Also refer to the pic showing the window lowered. can somebody confirm this.

My friend, I think you have hit it exactly!

The hole I saw was in just the right place for this. It would take some further evidence to convince me that this is NOT the answer.
See what AHF folks can discover, when we combine resources, experiences, and thoughts? More of the little details that are not found in books and may not seem important, but some of us just like to KNOW.
Thanks!
Geoff

[tunix0]

Hi Max,
SS collar tabs and shoulder eagle positions, plus the rising ground to the right in the background, show that the photo had not been flipped.
So, how did the car get turned that way? I don't have a clue ...
Geoff

I also think that they leave the Berghof and do not arrive. In this case, the car was probably raised backwards from the road. There are some other pictures showing the vehicles when they leave. Like these photos here:

1b6457bc7d8740166a6a64e2ff6e70cd.jpg (39.38 KiB) Viewed 869 times

Hitler-Berghof-steps.jpg (42.29 KiB) Viewed 869 times

vormBerghof2.PNG (284.52 KiB) Viewed 869 times

[tunix0]

hi,
further to the pics posted by Alvin, and Geoffs comments, could this be the cavity into which the sunroom (original wachenfeld house) window was lowered. this would explain the timber board presence. My 3D currently does not depict the cavity, but it would be in line with the garage rear wall. Also refer to the pic showing the window lowered. can somebody confirm this.

Hi,

how cool is that. I'm waiting for the day when I can walk through the Berghof with VR-glasses. A few more years ...

Keep it up!

[British Sapper]

We all know Adolf used to like his walk from the Berghof to the Mooslahnerkopf but I have read that he often had a car pick him up for the return journey. I've often wondered where the car picked him up. Surely it wouldn't have driven down the track? Or did it pick him up near what is now the twelfth/thirteenth (I can't remember) hole on the golf course, i.e. pretty much where the track into the Mooslahnerkopf currently starts?

I would hazard a guess the pick up would have been at the Gutshof ? When we were working on the road that crosses the golf course in the mid 1970's and re-surfacing this road, we parked our vehicles in front of the Gutshof . The Skytop Lodge was still there back then.

Geoff has a great overview on his website. It shows the former way based on maps and photos. Under the heading "Unknown Spots I" he also shows how Hitler is collected by a car. But the exact location is unclear. It will probably be somewhere on today's golf course, because there were paths back then.


http://www.thirdreichruins.com/teehauswalk.htm

We were in the restaurant Hochlenzer and there hung a big photo of the air reconnaissance. I took a picture of it and compared it to Geoffs Unknown Spots I. It looks as if the car came from the Gutshof over the current golf course. In the aerial photo you can still see the old way which suits the photo from the Eva Braun's movies.


Teehaus_Auto_klein.jpg


So I think that the vehicles were able to drive from the Gutshof to the vicinity of the tea house.

Even today a drivable path leads from the Guthof to the tea house through the forest next to the golf course. It was fixed and compacted so that the concrete mixers could come to the teahouse to pour concrete over it.

This route is well visible in Google Maps 3D:
https://goo.gl/maps/sCnaCZsrDMhQ8yoj7

Regards
Christian

The road that goes from the Obersalzberg strasse and appears to go on the right hand side of the Gutshof and out onto the golf course wasn't there in the 1970's. On the right was the Skytop lodge which has since been knocked down. It was used by the AFRC.

[Max]

Is there anyone else who, like me, thinks that image has been flipped, or the caption should say that Hitler is leaving the Berghof?

Hi Max,
SS collar tabs and shoulder eagle positions, plus the rising ground to the right in the background, show that the photo had not been flipped.
So, how did the car get turned that way? I don't have a clue ...
Geoff

Thanks Geoff
I'm not so good on uniforms.
It is obvious that the caption should read that Hitler is leaving the Berghof.
[Eva Braun leaves the scene to fetch Hitler's forgotten handkerchief ]:roll:

[Max]

Isn't it amazing the architect who drew those plans never designed
an driveway to accommodate all the visitors that would have been.
Just doesn't make sense. They thought of everything except that?
Even for emergency purposes?

I think Geoff is correct we will probably never know the answer really.

Hi Annelie
I agree, it doesn't make sense
Cheers
Max