Berghof Obersalzberg

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
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Biber
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#6046

Post by Biber » 11 Nov 2020, 19:16

Sorry for a digression here, but please note the timestamp on the last post. I offer this pause in the thread as a moment to reflect, as we in the US commemorate Veterans day and other countries across the world also pause in commemoration today.

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Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#6047

Post by Geoff Walden » 11 Nov 2020, 19:44

Hi all,

Happy Veterans Day to all the military service members, past and present, who serve(d) in the US Armed Forces!

I'm a photo/map/plan guy myself, and a believer in "a picture is worth 1000 words," so to clear up some of the confusion that may remain, particularly regarding the six windows as seen in that wall from outside, here is a part of the building plan for that floor, with added callouts. I also marked a small arrow on the route that AH could take between his bedroom and EB's, without being seen from the corridor outside.
Bedrooms.jpg
Source: Bavarian State Archives
headwest wrote:
11 Nov 2020, 16:47
Awesome info here !
I have always wondered why more pictures, or film has never turned up of the berghof after the war, like this picture, inside.
there were TONS of people who visited and went thru it. you would think there would be a lot of pics say in 1949 or 52 or whatever as cameras and film got better
like, here is hitlers bedroom today. here is the sink, or whatever
i keep waiting for a treasure trove of interior pics and video, heck they even made a Hollywood movie inside lol
headwest, indeed, GIs and other visitors made hundreds of photos in and around the Berghof and across the Obersalzberg from 1945-52. But you're right - most interior photos were taken in the Grand Hall, I suspect for three reasons: (1) that room was all that most visitors were interested in, (2) most visitors wouldn't know which specific room was Hitler's, and (3) the inside of the Berghof, after the bombing, the fire, and the plundering, was a mess. Nothing but rubble and burned debris left to see in most of the rooms (the side wing kitchen was an exception), and eventually, even the stairsteps going upstairs had been removed. So I would suspect that most visitors concentrated on simply the most visible, accessible, and representative thing - a view of the big picture window.
"Ordnung ist das halbe Leben" - I live in the other half.
http://www.thirdreichruins.com


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Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#6048

Post by Geoff Walden » 11 Nov 2020, 19:48

ramms wrote:
07 Nov 2020, 22:01
Tourists on the Obersalzberg, 1960.
https://www.alamy.com/search.html?qt=Ob ... erg%201960

Tourists on the Obersalzberg, 1974.
https://www.alamy.com/search.html?qt=Ob ... erg%201974

View of the entrance to the Berghof Bunker with waiting visitors, 1960.
Those are great links, ramms, thanks very much for posting! Lots of interesting photos in there!
"Ordnung ist das halbe Leben" - I live in the other half.
http://www.thirdreichruins.com

headwest
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#6049

Post by headwest » 11 Nov 2020, 22:06

awesome Geoff, that helps me a lot! thanks!

i agree, they didn't know back then what we know now, what rooms were what. I would find it very interesting though to be able to see hitlers rooms and EB's even in the ruined state

was it 54 when it was blown up? if so thats 9 years it stood there

oh i wondered as well, were there guards posted say in 1950 or so preventing trespassing? or was it pretty much anyone could come up and go thru it?

thanks!

CPB
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#6050

Post by CPB » 12 Nov 2020, 15:56

headwest wrote:
11 Nov 2020, 22:06

oh i wondered as well, were there guards posted say in 1950 or so preventing trespassing? or was it pretty much anyone could come up and go thru it?

thanks!
I have this photo showing what I think is the detachment responsible for guarding the empty Berghof. Seeing as it's dated 1951, and obviously the winter, I think it's fair to assume this could well be a kind of 'farewell' group shot before the building was given up ready for destruction a few months later.
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Br. James
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#6051

Post by Br. James » 12 Nov 2020, 18:20

A fine photo, CPB! Thanks so much for sharing it here. I was taken by your phrase that this photo is: "showing what I think is the detachment responsible for guarding the empty Berghof" -- I wonder whether each of the buildings of the Obersalzberg Administration had it's own detachment of MPs guarding it, or was there just one detachment assigned to guard the whole property? As we know, the homes of Göring, Bormann and other chief Nazi leaders were recognized from the beginning of the occupation and were therefore also targets for looting, as were the Zum Türken, the SS Barracks, the Pension Moritz, the Kehlsteinhaus and Hitler's Tea House, etc.

A great photo!

Br. James

headwest
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#6052

Post by headwest » 12 Nov 2020, 21:43

awesome photos! thanks so much! I figured there had to be some kind of guard setup there at some point after the war

I imagine it was also structurally unsound as well and they didn't want people wandering thru and getting hurt

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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#6053

Post by Br. James » 13 Nov 2020, 19:19

Thanks very much for providing the schematic of the second (first) floor of the Berghof, Geoff; very helpful, as always. I had obviously forgotten that both AH's and Eva's bathrooms had one window each, which effects their placement in that line of exterior windows. And that short hallway between AH's and Eva's bedrooms also provided a doorway from the main hallway on that floor of the building -- sort of an anti-chamber to Hitler's suite from that hallway, since unlike Eva's bedroom which had a doorway from the main hallway, Hitler's bedroom did not have any doorway to the hall. And this door to the ant-chamber was conveniently placed at the top of the back staircase coming up from the private living room in the old Haus Wachenfeld section of the Berghof, so that when Hitler wanted to go down for breakfast or to come up after one of his late-night sit-ups, he could do so very conveniently.

Prosit, my friend,

Br. James

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Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#6054

Post by Geoff Walden » 13 Nov 2020, 23:29

About your photo with the MPs, Chris ... Or, was this just a group of MPs visiting from somewhere, posing at a famous site? Like all the photos we see of German military groups posed at San Souci palace, or the Hermannsdenkmal, or many other places?

I don't recall that I have ever read a thing about any MPs or other military personnel guarding the ruins on the Obersalzberg, except during 1945. It would sure be interesting to know if there were! If so, they sure didn't seem to do much guarding! Although there were signs posted, and for a short time it seems that the US authorities kept civilians out (maybe this was just a matter of months), there are so many photos and accounts of German civilians visiting the ruins, with no MP or other US military personnel in sight. And all those ruins were stripped clean by plunderers double-quick.

Granted, the fact that these have weapons would make it seem they were a local group. But if so, maybe they were just the MP platoon stationed in Berchtesgaden for writing traffic tickets and jailing drunken GIs, posing, as you suggested, at a place that they knew would be torn down soon. I'm just skeptical that any MPs ever officially guarded the ruins (post-1945) ... but would love to hear different!
"Ordnung ist das halbe Leben" - I live in the other half.
http://www.thirdreichruins.com

CPB
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#6055

Post by CPB » 19 Nov 2020, 12:37

Geoff Walden wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 23:29
About your photo with the MPs, Chris ... Or, was this just a group of MPs visiting from somewhere, posing at a famous site? Like all the photos we see of German military groups posed at San Souci palace, or the Hermannsdenkmal, or many other places?

I don't recall that I have ever read a thing about any MPs or other military personnel guarding the ruins on the Obersalzberg, except during 1945. It would sure be interesting to know if there were! If so, they sure didn't seem to do much guarding! Although there were signs posted, and for a short time it seems that the US authorities kept civilians out (maybe this was just a matter of months), there are so many photos and accounts of German civilians visiting the ruins, with no MP or other US military personnel in sight. And all those ruins were stripped clean by plunderers double-quick.

Granted, the fact that these have weapons would make it seem they were a local group. But if so, maybe they were just the MP platoon stationed in Berchtesgaden for writing traffic tickets and jailing drunken GIs, posing, as you suggested, at a place that they knew would be torn down soon. I'm just skeptical that any MPs ever officially guarded the ruins (post-1945) ... but would love to hear different!
Hey Geoff, yes you may well be correct there.

It just struck me as a very formal photo – i.e. all wearing the exact same uniform, all perfectly arranged, like it's been professionally choreographed, as opposed to a 'quick snap' in front of Hitler's home like thousands of other GI tourist photos. Plus notice only two of the guard are armed...which makes me wonder if those were the two on-guard at that time. Also, the photo itself is big...like a sheet of regular printer/A4 paper, so it was clearly taken by a professional photographer with a high-end camera.

But honestly, who knows. I wouldn't be *that* surprised if there was some kind of guard presence at the Berghof and the surrounding buildings...but like you say, I've never heard or read anything about it before.

As always, fun to speculate...

Cheers

Chris

headwest
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#6056

Post by headwest » 19 Nov 2020, 20:39

It's very interesting to see these pics and wonder. Having caught some fascination with the Berghof postwar I still hold out hope for some real interior pics, showing the different rooms at different times. I do realize most did not have access to a floor plan and thus would have no idea what room was AH's or EB's but wouldnt it be interesting to see them.

looking at the pics and understanding the bombing and fire and looting did so much damage but the walls were there, the windows, and the ability to put oneself in these exact locations would have been extremely interesting

I was wondering, was the berghof always a popular place to visit? whether there were guards or not, did the German population, or visitors visit often? or was it something mostly forgotten between say 46-52? still can't believe we have a few pics of the demolition but zero video.

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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#6057

Post by CPB » 20 Nov 2020, 12:03

headwest wrote:
19 Nov 2020, 20:39
It's very interesting to see these pics and wonder. Having caught some fascination with the Berghof postwar I still hold out hope for some real interior pics, showing the different rooms at different times. I do realize most did not have access to a floor plan and thus would have no idea what room was AH's or EB's but wouldnt it be interesting to see them.

looking at the pics and understanding the bombing and fire and looting did so much damage but the walls were there, the windows, and the ability to put oneself in these exact locations would have been extremely interesting

I was wondering, was the berghof always a popular place to visit? whether there were guards or not, did the German population, or visitors visit often? or was it something mostly forgotten between say 46-52? still can't believe we have a few pics of the demolition but zero video.
Headwest

Here are some post-war interior shots of varying quality – some from my collection, others I've gathered from places over the years.
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CPB
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#6058

Post by CPB » 20 Nov 2020, 12:04

Few more

That middle photo showing Bergman and co in the bedroom...I have never been able to work out where that was taken. I am guessing the Berghof.
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CPB
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#6059

Post by CPB » 20 Nov 2020, 12:05

Few more ...
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Hans1906
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#6060

Post by Hans1906 » 20 Nov 2020, 16:01

CPB,

what may have been the reason for the lady Ingrid Bergman to visit the place, did I have overlooked something above?

Very interesting photos, thank you for sharing the pictures to the forum.

Hans1906
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

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