Berghof Obersalzberg

[Biber]

Found it! Doing Spatial History. A google books preview showing two plans for the Berghof expansion :https://books.google.com/books?id=Gk1SE ... ng&f=false

The grand entrance would be on the far end of the created courtyard between the two wings.

[Duane Becker]

Geoff: I've been following the saga of the Dokumentation Center progress since the old building closed a couple of years ago. Very excited to see it. Hope they've included alot of stuff about the non Naza years. I'd like to see history of the families and farms that were there over the last several hundred years.
We are planning our trip now, what do you think is the best time to avoid snow-making the Kehlstein closed. We went the last of May 2019 and there was snow everywhere, patches and snow fields in shaded areas, Kehlstein road was closed. I was there 3 weeks too, waiting for it to open, never did.

Now we are waiting for the Dokumentation Center to open, which I see is the end of this month, so we are planning for next year, either early June or September-really looking at September to go.
Any thoughts on your experience dealing with snow and Kehlstein closing in September because of snow?

[Geoff Walden]

Hi Duane,
When I was going regularly, I would visit the OSB either in mid-May, or the first week of October. This was to avoid (1) the tourist crowds (2) the worst of the summer vegetation.
Either of those times is taking a chance on the weather, but October seemed more stable than May. I only experienced snow on the OSB once in October.
Having said that, maybe the best time would be late September, as the chances of the Kehlsteinhaus receiving snow should be very low then. I do not myself remember a time that the Kehlsteinhaus has been closed as early as September for weather.

[Obsidian]

some interesting footage.

https://youtu.be/m4QEE1t0wtw?si=H-D_cr6fOl5AjQDR

[Biber]

Working as a librarian, I was able easily to get ahold of Doing Spatial History (Routledge, 2022), and I’d like to share some of the relatively short chapter "Architectural drawings" (pp.102-117) by Despina Stratigakos, which is devoted to the Berghof. Stratigakos’ chapter is on the flow of the Berghof’s architecture and how it, together with its décor, purposely was designed to shape the visitor’s experience: “The Berghof as performance space.” As might be expected there are descriptions of sight-lines, views, lighting, artwork, seating arrangements, formal/informal spaces, the size and scale of the various spaces, the big picture window, and the intended access routes to the Great Hall – I really had never given much thought that the intended main entrance to the Great Hall would have been around the back and through the larger, side doorway (curtained like in a theater) from the Wachenfeld side. Come to think, of it the doorway to the left of the fireplace really was relatively small to have been a main entrance to such a grand space.

The second part of the chapter turns to 1939 plans for further expansion of the Berghof, from which the eextension of the kitchen/dining wing came about. Unpublished plans found in the Bavarian Central State Archive in Munich show that at the time much more grandiose expansion plans were also explored, specifically for an additional wing projecting eastward from the main part of the Berghof. The new wing would have dramatically reconfigured the entrance to the Berghof and, on its upper floor, housed a vast, 61,000 book library that connected directly to Hitler’s private study.

The driveway would have been reconfigured to be a circular parking/drop-off area at the eastern end of the wing. Guests would enter via a grand staircase at the end of the courtyard formed between the new wing and the existing dining/kitchen wing. Guests would then proceed toward the front and along the length of the new wing to enter the Great Hall through a new door located adjacent the large window. “This extended door-to-Führer path, intended perhaps to build suspense, recalls the processional route that Speer created in the New Chancellery in Berlin, although without the same type of architectural splendor along the way. Instead, visitors would have walked past a long panorama of mountain views, glimpsed through a series of windows, before entering the great Hall and experiencing the largest panorama of all.” (p.113)

But the showpiece of the new wing would have been the library. “Given the attention lavished on the great Hall in the prewar press about the Berhgof … Hitler planned a showpiece that might have overshadowed it: namely a monumental library on the second floor.” “The entrance to the library would have been from the eastern end of Hitler’s study. A door would have opened onto the upper level of the library, from which a monumental staircase would have led to the floor below (a smaller staircase was planned for the opposite side of the room as well.” Stratigakos discuses how the library would complement the art/music image of the Great Hall, bolstering the image of Hitler as cultured and learned. The projection of the image of masculinity is also presented.

While the portfolio doesn’t offer any direct clues as to why this aspect of the 1939 expansion wasn’t pursued, there are aspects that suggest the designer experienced issues bringing together balance and proportions with the existing Berghof structure. The author also notes that each renovation departed further and further from the bucolic, alpine cottage image of the original Hause Wachenfeld, something that even Hitler, to a degree, lamented. “Looking back in 1942 on the construction of the Berghof, Hitler confessed that when he visited the building site in 1935, ‘the dimensions of the house made me somewhat afraid it would clash with the landscape. I was very glad to notice that, on the contrary, it fitted it very well. I had restricted myself for a reason – for to my taste, it should have been still bigger. Perhaps Hitler later regretted his initial decision.” (p.115). The author suggests that through the difficulties of reconciling the design and the setting, “it was clearly difficult to avoid the bastion-like effect, and Hitler surely would not have wanted to evoke the nearby Salzburg castle, which represented all too clearly autocratic rule.” (p. 115)

In all it’s an interesting and thought-provoking chapter, certainly mostl for the two figures showing the plans for the propose new wing. I can’t say it really offered new insights into the carefully choreographed and planned psychology behind how Hitler portrayed and projected himself. It’s just nicely wrapped up and presented in a tidy little chapter that presents a new and unexplored aspect of the Berghof.

From google books preview:

[AlexS]

I would like to start by thanking Mannheim for pointing out the danger of using A.Mitchells work as a source!

But most of all a huge thanks to Biber for digging this article up. Very interesting to read about the plans in more detail and to begin to understand the architectural thoughts about the library complex, its entrance and procession. Just great! Despinas book "Hitler at home" is another one I am aiming to buy on the Berghof subject, she seems quite knowledgable in the analysis of the architectural space that is Berghof.

Also I've tested to overlay the sketches on top of the plan drawings from the book and the ratios of the spaces seem to add up perfectly. But if I am interpreting the sketches correctly, they seem to depict an alternative of the eastward positioning of the library, and instead be located in the westward direction in the position of the adjunctancy building! The vaults of the hall of the Berghof as well as the great hall extention and remnants of the ols wachenfeld seems to align quite well at least if placed in this position. This will be very interesting to keep researching.

Also looking forward to Universität Wien: institut für kunstgeschichtes research project "Hitler als Architect" to be published. Hopefully there are some further insight in Hitlers role in the design of the Berghof and maybe even an analysis of the Speer archive material!

Beat regards
Alex

[MementoMori]

Dear all. First post, so be gentle...

Apologies for this being SLIGHTLY off topic, but given the depth of expertise within this forum I'm sure someone will know....

What is planned for the Hotel zum Türken, just minutes up the road from the Berghof?

Now it is sold I have concerns it will be levelled (like so much at the Obersalzberg), whereas this rare historic survival should be preserved. It's remarkable it still stands there today.

Does anyone know who has bought it and what their plans are?

Many thanks.

[Duane Becker]

MementoMori, check out the post heading under 'Hotel Zum Turken' in the Propaganda, Culture and Architect section-same section as this. Someone posted an update on the status of the Zum Turken. Although not much new info. But I remember, I think from this forum when the Zum Turken was sold a while back, that someone or the business who purchased it, was local to the area. I don't know all that much and what I do know comes from this forum and maybe some Facebook stuff, so I'm not that knowledgeable. So far, I haven't found any more details...and if my memory serves me correctly, when the hotel as sold recently, I don't think the buyer's name was listed, or at least kept private-maybe wrong on that.

[MementoMori]

Many thanks. It all seems very quiet, considering it was sold back in 2020. Three years is a long time for a building to stand empty (especially without heating to keep damp at bay during the winter). Presuming it is empty and closed up? Can't find anything about the buyers other than they are local to the area.

[MementoMori]

Hello.

Does anyone know the source of the attached map (as in, the full size original version of the map not the smaller cropped section in the guide book)?

If so, where can I get hold of a full size copy please?

Many thanks.

[Geoff Walden]

Hi,
That is part of a map of the area that was produced by the construction company from 1937-39, by order of Martin Bormann, and updated periodically thereafter. It is commonly called the “Hartmann Map” after Max Hartmann, head of the construction office.
As to your question, well, I wish I knew the answer.
I know of at least one original, and a copy that someone found a few years ago, but I’ve never seen or heard of a copy for sale myself.
Parts of this map are reproduced in Hartmann’s book “Die Verwaltung eines Berges unter Martin Bormann” (Berchtesgaden, Plenk, 1989 and later editions).

[MementoMori]

Hi Geoff,

Thanks for the information. If I track down a copy I'll let you know!

I wonder whether Florian Beierl might know the whereabouts of one as it looks like he uses a hi-res image on page 19 of his phenomenal book.

See image attached. Does anyone know how I could contact Mr Beierl?

Thank you.

[Alpenfestung]

MementoMori,

I came across a U.S.Army copy of the "Northern Sheet" of this map several years ago, look on page 289 of this thread. I did have it scanned, unfortunately the .pdf files are corrupted on the memory stick. I do have a 1.6MB .tiff file that can be opened with Paint and probably other programs, let me know if you are interested. Not sure if I can attach it to a DM through the forum?

Peter

[MementoMori]

Dear Peter,

Thanks for your interesting response and the reference to page 289 of this thread, which i have now read. I am new to the forum, so apologies (all) if I'm going over old ground.

Your additonal info on the map set me off on further research, and I have found this high-resolution fully zoomable map of Obersalzberg from 1945 (according to the title):

https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/12111532

Might not open on a phone, but works brilliantly on a laptop.

Also another high res fully "downloadable" version here:

http://maps.mapywig.org/m/City_plans/AL ... 45_.U5.jpg

Are these similar to the map you scanned before? Would be interested to know if these copies are well known in the forum.

Kind regards.

[Biber]

My impression of the map that in substance it is indeed the earlier German map from '37-39, which was merely reprinted and annotated in '45 by the 666th Engr. Top. Co., U.S. Army. That tends to be the case with topographical maps.