Football, fascism and England's Nazi salute

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Max
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Football, fascism and England's Nazi salute

Post by Max » 07 Oct 2003 12:22

Dark times: The England team, left, which included a 23-year-old Stanley Matthews, perform a Nazi salute during the German national anthem in Berlin, 1938.

Notice the correct eye level salute by the German team compared with the Brits.

Full story
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3128202.stm
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tonyh
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Post by tonyh » 07 Oct 2003 12:34

Some members of the England supporters still do the "nazi" salute. :D

Tony

milos
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Post by milos » 07 Oct 2003 14:05

OT: Just browsed through the Movies forum and saw someone ridiculing "Escape to victory". As a football fan(I'll be damned before I call it soccer :P )I'm deeply offended and demand a full apology! :lol: 8)

To get back to the subject: the England team was not the only one doing this. The French Olympics squad of 1936 did exactly the same during theopening ceremony.

Colbro
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Post by Colbro » 07 Oct 2003 19:16

You have to remember that this was 1938. It is difficult to evaluate the significance of this event, in the light of how the Nazi period is viewed, with the benefit of hindsight. Certainly, the writing was on the wall but how many people realised, at this time?

von Voltee
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football

Post by von Voltee » 07 Oct 2003 19:35

I completely agree with Colbro.

Regards

Luca
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Post by Luca » 07 Oct 2003 22:03

So in 1933 - 1938 period the Nazi Regime was ok for England and France?
Luca

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redcoat
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Post by redcoat » 07 Oct 2003 22:04

This is one of the most shamefull incidents in English football, a number of the players didn't want to do the salute, but they were threatened by the English fooball authorities with being suspended from the team if they didn't.

ps, England won the match

Lobscouse
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Nazi regime

Post by Lobscouse » 07 Oct 2003 22:08

Sure. It still is for a lot of us. :lol: :P :roll: 8O 8) :P

The Bullfrog of the Pontine Marshes was also highly thought of by Winston
Churchill, at that time.

This is for Luca.

Colbro
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Post by Colbro » 07 Oct 2003 23:13

Nobody is saying, or even suggesting, that the Nazi regime was "OK" for England and France. If, for the sake of argument, events had taken a different course, we would probably not even be discussing this incident, today. The fact that they developed the way they did, colours our perception of this event.
Yes, it was shameful, even in 1938, as I said, the writing was on the wall.
However we were not at war and hoped never to be at war. Just another little manifestation of that policy - what was it called now? Oh, I remember- appeasement. The whole episode was shameful.

Roderick
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Post by Roderick » 07 Oct 2003 23:45

Obviously, the English players gave the Nazi salute as sign of respect for Germany because some politician ordered. After this unpleasant match all international games were forbidden in Germany.
I think mein führer Adolf Hitler didn't like to lose. :(

Roderick

tonyh
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Post by tonyh » 08 Oct 2003 12:09

Look, the salute was given because it was a mark of respect to the Country you were playing in. It wasn't demanded by Germany, it was simply a sign of goodwill between the Sporting Nations.

And International football was stopped because of war, not because Germany lost a footie match.

The league matches in Germany continued until late 1944, IIRC.

Throughout the world, including Britain, many viewed nazi Germany as a progressive, forward looking State, even in 1938. The "writing" may have been on the wall if one views events 60 years later, but at the time, the vast majority of people saw nothing wrong with the nazi party. Most weren't even aware of their own nation's party politics (same goes for today), so they certainly wouldn't have been to aware of party policy in a foreign Country.

Tony

Roderick
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Post by Roderick » 08 Oct 2003 13:03

[quote="tonyh"]Look, the salute was given because it was a mark of respect to the Country you were playing in. It wasn't demanded by Germany, it was simply a sign of goodwill between the Sporting Nations.

It wasn't simply a sign of goodwill between tha Sporting Nations.
Take a look at http://www.obv.org.uk/reports/2003/rpt20030922e.html
and you'll find the reasons of Nazi salute.

And International football was stopped because of war, not because Germany lost a footie match.

It wasn't because the war. Indeed, Dr. Josef Goebbels decreed that all international games was prohibited after this match.

tonyh
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Post by tonyh » 08 Oct 2003 14:44

It doesn't actually state why the salute was given Roderick, except for...

"It was a Foreign Office order that the England team".

So I'll stand by my comment. In fact the whole game was a gesture of good will between the sporting nations. Like friendlies today are.

>>Indeed, Dr. Josef Goebbels decreed that all international games was prohibited after this match.<<

Nonsense. Goebels, the minister for PROPAGANDA, decreed that international football matches were to be "banned"? Where did you get this from? Goebels wouldn't have had that sort of power to utter a decree like that. There was a World Cup in the Summer of 1938, for god's sake. After the match we're discussing. The last International game that Germany took part in was in 1942, against Slovakia.

International games were stopped BECAUSE of the war. No other reason.

DATE/PLACE/OPPOSITION/RESULT

04.06.1938 Paris, Fra Switzerland 1-1 World Cup 38
09.06.1938 Paris, Fra Switzerland 2-4 World Cup 38
18.09.1938 Chemnitz Poland 4-1
25.09.1938 Bucuresti, Rom Romania 4-1
25.01.1939 Brussel, Bel Belgium 4-1
26.02.1939 Berlin Yugoslavia 3-2
26.03.1939 Differdange, Lux Luxembourg 1-2
26.03.1939 Firenze, Ita Italy 2-3
23.05.1939 Bremen Ireland 1-1
22.06.1939 Oslo, Nor Norway 4-0
25.06.1939 København, Den Denmark 2-0
29.06.1939 Tallinn, Est Esthonia 2-0
27.08.1939 Bratislava, Svk Slovakia 0-2
24.09.1939 Budapest, Hun Hungary 1-5
15.10.1939 Zagreb, Yug Yugoslavia 5-1
22.10.1939 Sofia, Bul Bulgaria 2-1
12.11.1939 Breslau (Wroclaw) Bohemia 4-4
26.11.1939 Berlin Italy 5-2
03.12.1939 Chemnitz Slovakia 3-1
07.04.1940 Berlin Hungary 2-2
14.04.1940 Wien, Aut Yugoslavia 1-2
05.05.1940 Milano, Ita Italy 2-3
14.07.1940 Frankfurt Romania 9-3
01.09.1940 Leipzig Finland 13-0
15.09.1940 Bratislava, Svk Slovakia 1-0
06.10.1940 Budapest, Hun Hungary 2-2
20.10.1940 München Bulgaria 7-3
03.11.1940 Zagreb, Yug Yugoslavia 0-2
17.11.1940 Hamburg Denmark 1-0
09.03.1941 Stuttgart Switzerland 4-2
06.04.1941 Köln Hungary 7-0
20.04.1941 Bern, Sui Switzerland 1-2
01.06.1941 Bucuresti, Rom Romania 4-1
15.06.1941 Wien, Aut Croatia 5-1
05.10.1941 Helsinki, Fin Finland 6-0
05.10.1941 Stockholm, Swe Sweden 2-4
16.11.1941 Dresden Denmark 1-1
07.12.1941 Breslau (Wroclaw) Slovakia 4-0
20.01.1942 Zagreb, Cro Croatia 2-0
01.02.1942 Wien, Aut Switzerland 1-2
12.04.1942 Berlin Spain 1-1
03.05.1942 Budapest, Hun Hungary 5-3
19.07.1942 Sofia, Bul Bulgaria 3-0
16.08.1942 Beuthen (Bytom) Romania 7-0
20.09.1942 Berlin Sweden 2-3
18.10.1942 Bern, Sui Switzerland 5-3
01.11.1942 Stuttgart Croatia 5-1
22.11.1942 Bratislava, Svk Slovakia 5-2

Tony

ChristopherPerrien
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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 08 Oct 2003 15:19

I agree Tonyh,

Just a courtesy when in another country," When in Rome",
Speaking of Rome , it is not a Nazi salute but a Roman salute
"Hail leader", and I think it is a "prettier" salute than the hand to the visor/eyebrow, besides it is a very ancient "body language" symbol of salutation and respect and having no weapon in your hand.

Roderick
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Post by Roderick » 08 Oct 2003 15:38

tonyh wrote: International games were stopped BECAUSE of the war. No other reason.
This is only your opinion...if not, I'd like you explain the sources of that.

Do spend a time reading "GOEBBELS" by Alan Wykes and you'll understand what I said before.

regards,

Roderick

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