Gauleiter Questions and Answers

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Igor Karpov
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Re: Gauleiter Questions and Answers

Post by Igor Karpov » 30 Sep 2010 07:31

Mark Costa wrote:Wilhelm Grimm was allowed to still wear his uniform as a Reichsleiter with one exception. Contrary to all regualations he had special collar tabs made in BLACK to denote his retired status. As you know, in the pre-1939 uniform structure, black tabs were used to denote retired or honorary status. After 1939 all black tabs were technically abolished -- but being a Reichsleiter Grimm could do what he wanted and had them specially made.

I must also note, that although they were abolished, almost all of the retired/honorary gauleiters continued to wear their black 1933-39 gauleiter tabs into the war years. Kube, Jung, Albrecht can be seen in photos as late as 1943 wearing the pre-1939 style black tabs.

Mark
Mark:

This is not true, as this system was never abolished. In Robert Ley's Anordnung 10/44 (03.03.1944) it was again said that "Politische Leiter a.D. tragen ausserdem schwarze Paspelierung um die Kragenspiegel."

Regards,
Igor

schmitty65
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Re: Gauleiter Questions and Answers

Post by schmitty65 » 10 Oct 2010 17:29

I have been very interested in the pictures and looked in the limited resources I have available, and I am wondering if you can expand on the military power (if any) the Gauleiter might hold. The description is it was " a para military rank" wikipedia. Was there any military troops that were under the direct control of the Gauleiters such as the National Guard in the US which falls under the direction of the govenor of a state?

Mark Costa
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Re: Gauleiter Questions and Answers

Post by Mark Costa » 10 Oct 2010 20:42

Igor:

the uniforms and insignias were abolished only ! The structure or aD. personnel was not.

Mark

Igor Karpov
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Re: Gauleiter Questions and Answers

Post by Igor Karpov » 11 Oct 2010 09:16

Mark Costa wrote:Igor:

the uniforms and insignias were abolished only ! The structure or aD. personnel was not.

Mark
Mark:

Sorry, no. And I was not talking about the structure. In the above mentioned order ("Uniforms of Political Leaders z.V. and a.D.") it was made clear when the relevant Political Leaders were allowed the wear uniforms (black collar patches with black piping and the simple Swastika armband).

Regards,
Igor

Mark Costa
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Re: Gauleiter Questions and Answers

Post by Mark Costa » 11 Oct 2010 12:40

Igor:

The tabs were abolished --- however retired personnel were still allowed to USE the OLD tabs on their uniforms. No NEW tabs were designed nor made with the new insignia designs of 1939. The exception being the Black 1939 style Reichsleiter tabs worn by Wilhelm Grimm. As one can see in many photos the Black retired/honorary tabs were worn into the war years but they were of the OLD 1933-34 designs.

Mark

Igor Karpov
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Re: Gauleiter Questions and Answers

Post by Igor Karpov » 12 Oct 2010 06:35

Mark:

It was specifically stated that uniforms of z.V. and a.D leaders corresponds to a uniforms of active political leaders. Besides, the document makes no mention of that the old style collar patches should be used.

Arguing in your vein, we encounter an apparent contradiction. Let's assume, that some Oberabschnittsleiter was retired in 1942. It is quite obvious, that he can not wear the collar patches of, let's say, Gauamtsleiter (1933-34).

Regards,
Igor

Max Williams
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Re: Gauleiter Questions and Answers

Post by Max Williams » 12 Oct 2010 10:26

Gentlemen,
Your difference of opinions can only be settled by quoting original sources such as the original orders. For example, Mark states the collar insignia were abolished. What is your source for this? Igor contradicts this and quotes an original order.
Only with both original sources can this question be considered and hopefully resolved.
Regards,
Max.

Mark Costa
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Re: Gauleiter Questions and Answers

Post by Mark Costa » 12 Oct 2010 23:47

The MBdRZM Ausgabe no. 10 of 20th of May 1939 abolished and replaced all 1933-39 style collar tabs including those worn by the Party Court ( Blue Tabs) and Retired/honorary PL's ( Black Tabs). What I find interesting about Ley's directive of 1944 is that it seems to indicate that aD personnel are to wear Black tabs with black PIPING which was not in the original structure of 1933-34. Black piping only existed on Kreis level tabs. Black piping was dropped completely with the 1939-45 styles. I find that very strange indeed. Retired/Honorary PL's wore 1933 style tabs in Black with the piping of the their past level -- gold for Reich level, Red of gau level etc. Also no other period charts or documents bear out the fact that some type of Black tabs were issued in the 1939-45 style. This directive does not seem to have been carried out as NO specimens of any Black 1939-45 style tabs have ever surfaced with the exception of Grimm's Reichsleiter tab. If the directive was initiated, then one would think that some other collar tab charts, drawings, books, documents etc would have backed up this directive -- yet nothing exists. And no specimens exist in any collections around the world. If indeed the directive was aproved by Hitler, and authorized 1939-45 black tabs to be produced, one would expect to find at least salesman samples to exist, but as of yet nothing. Like so many of Ley's other directives I am assuming that this one also was shelved before ever being authorized by the Party Chancellery and Hitler. It is possible that Ley was indicating that newly retired personnel were to use the old styles as this was becoming fashionable again with many of the higher leaders. Several Gauleiters and prominent PL's were reverting back to the pre-1939 styles as they wanted to rid themselves of the "Golden Pheasants" label. Gauleiters Burckel, Kaufmann, Hellmuth, Florian are just some of the men that reverted back to pre-1939 tabs during the war years.

Igor also mentioned the fact that an Oberabschnittsleiter who retired in 1942 would not wear the tabs of pre-war Gauamtleiter -- when in fact it is very possible for this to happen. The 1939-45 tabs were RANKS based on SALARY and LENGTH of service NOT positions --- whereas the pre-1939 tabs WERE BOTH reflective of POSITIONS as well as ranks.
So a Oberabschnittsleiter could hold that rank in 1942 as a Gauamtleiter ! In pre-1939 scheme of things a Gauamtleiter was both a rank and position. In 1939-45 structure it was only a position ! Several ranks in the 1939-45 structure could hold the position of Gauamtleiter. That is why one finds many instances after 1939, of Deputy Gauleiters holding different ranks at Gau level. Some were Befehlsleiters while others were Dienstleiters etc etc. After 1939 Deputy Gauleiter was no longer a rank but a position. After 1939, only two types of PL's were considered BOTH a rank AND a position -- Reichsleiters and Gauleiters !

Mark Costa

Max Williams
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Re: Gauleiter Questions and Answers

Post by Max Williams » 13 Oct 2010 00:26

Now that's more like it! Thanks for your last entry.
Over to you Igor.
Max.

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Re: Gauleiter Questions and Answers

Post by Pitino » 27 Oct 2010 13:57

-Anyone know the exact date that Heinrich Unger was dismissed nfrom the post of Stellvertretenden Gauleiter von Essen? I had always thought that it was (February 10, 1939), but I recently found a transmission from (April 18, 1939) and he was still listed as Stv. GL. Unger (Essen). If anyone can clear this matter up for me I would really appreciate it!!!

Pitino

Mark Costa
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Re: Gauleiter Questions and Answers

Post by Mark Costa » 27 Oct 2010 19:53

Pitino:

I show him as having served as Deputy Gauleiter right up to his death on April 16, 1939. I do not show him being relieved of his post before his death. Maybe he was unofficially sent on leave because of health reasons in February.

Mark Costa

Pitino
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Re: Gauleiter Questions and Answers

Post by Pitino » 27 Oct 2010 20:49

Mark Costa wrote:Pitino:

I show him as having served as Deputy Gauleiter right up to his death on April 16, 1939. I do not show him being relieved of his post before his death. Maybe he was unofficially sent on leave because of health reasons in February.

Mark Costa
Mark,
-Thanks for the info!!! I did not know he died on (April 16, 1939)!!! That transmission I saw must have been pertaining to his funeral services then. If he did have a long drawn out illness then he more than likely did take a leave of absence in (February), which coincides with the date in February that I had always thought he left on. Thansk again!!

Pitino

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Re: Gauleiter Questions and Answers

Post by Pitino » 27 Oct 2010 20:57

Mark,
-I found a transmission relating to Reichsleiter Wilhelm Grimm. It is from Grimm, RL, GL to the Stab des StdF. It states that on (February 1, 1939) Grimm was relieved upon his own request by Hess as Kammervorsitzender beim Obersten Parteigericht. Then on (March 9, 1939) Bormann gave a final official statement lists Grimm as G.z.D. Does the G.z.D. stand for Gauleiter at Disposal? Also, why isn't Grimm referred to as GL a.D instead of GL.? You seem to know a lot about Grimm, which is why I have come to you with this but if anyone else can answer then please feel free!!!

Pitino

Mark Costa
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Re: Gauleiter Questions and Answers

Post by Mark Costa » 28 Oct 2010 04:25

Pitino:

I do not believe the GzD has anything to do with his former position as a gauleiter. His position as such was very short lived and before 1933 so my assumption is that it relates somehow to the Party Court. As to what this stands for I am not sure. It may be that his request to be relieved was not supposed to be permanent -- as he joined the army. I have found documents that still list him as being on the court long after February 1939 -- even into 1940 after his position was replaced by others. He may have wanted to remain at the "Fuhrer's disposal" for some later assignment after his return from Army service. I have seen this type of statement referring to Grimm in other documents. And I agree the wording should say GLaD instead, if indeed it does refer to his earlier stint as a gauleiter. Are you able to post these documents here for reference?

Mark

Phil Nix
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Re: Gauleiter Questions and Answers

Post by Phil Nix » 28 Oct 2010 17:23

Copuld Gdz mean Gauleiter zur Dienst and GaD mean Gauleiter ausser Dienst so the first meant Gauleiter witout a post but available and the seond Gauleiter no longer available
Phil Nix

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