Highest NSDAP Rank Holders: Dienstleiter-Hauptbefehlsleiter

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Pitino
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Re: Reich Hauptdienstleiter

Post by Pitino » 30 Oct 2009 20:03

Mark,
-I actually just viewed an official NSDAP document that has Otto Marrenbach ranked as an Oberbefehlsleiter der NSDAP already on September 26,1940. A full 14 months before December 1941.

Pitino

Mark Costa
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Re: Reich Hauptdienstleiter

Post by Mark Costa » 30 Oct 2009 22:05

Pitino:

Will have to check, but I believe I have photos of Marrenbach as an Oberbefehlsleiter as early as March or April 1940. So his promotion date may well be into very early 1940.

Mark

Pitino
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Re: Reich Hauptdienstleiter

Post by Pitino » 30 Oct 2009 23:01

Mark,
-I don't know if you saw my earlier post at the end of page 4, but I will ask you again. When you mentioned the special tabs worn by Marrenbach in 1939 it made me remember a picture I had seen a while ago. If I am not mistaken I viewed a picture of Erich Koch and he was wearing a special set of tabs. It was in 1939 and it may have been around the time Marrenbach was wearing his tabs. Maybe you know something about it?

Pitino

Mark Costa
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Re: Reich Hauptdienstleiter

Post by Mark Costa » 31 Oct 2009 01:05

Pitino:

In March 1939 before any official announcements or regulations were ever made public, Ley and several other high ranking officials made a state visit to Italy. It was the first time that any political leaders had worn the new 1939 style uniforms and insignias. The two gauleiters on the trip Erich Koch and Josef Grohe wore what has always been referred to as the Third Pattern Gauleiter collar tabs -- the eagles were not superimposed over the oakleaves and the stems actually curved inward towards the neck instead of outward.

Marrenbach on this trip wore tabs that were completely unique. They were never worn again. Later during another 1939 trip to Italy Claus Selzner wore unique tabs that were never seen again. In all, there are at least 3 different designs of PL insignia higher than Hauptbefehlsleiter that were created but never sanctioned and quickly disappeared once the new designs were fully approved and regulations published. A handful of these rare insignias stil exist in private collections. Unfortunately due to copyrights I can not post photos of them here.

The gauleiter tabs are very well known as Koch continued to wear them during the war right up until 1945. The others are very rare and only rarely seen in photos and collections.


Mark

Pitino
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Re: Reich Hauptdienstleiter

Post by Pitino » 31 Oct 2009 01:30

Mark Costa wrote:Pitino:

In March 1939 before any official announcements or regulations were ever made public, Ley and several other high ranking officials made a state visit to Italy. It was the first time that any political leaders had worn the new 1939 style uniforms and insignias. The two gauleiters on the trip Erich Koch and Josef Grohe wore what has always been referred to as the Third Pattern Gauleiter collar tabs -- the eagles were not superimposed over the oakleaves and the stems actually curved inward towards the neck instead of outward.

Marrenbach on this trip wore tabs that were completely unique. They were never worn again. Later during another 1939 trip to Italy Claus Selzner wore unique tabs that were never seen again. In all, there are at least 3 different designs of PL insignia higher than Hauptbefehlsleiter that were created but never sanctioned and quickly disappeared once the new designs were fully approved and regulations published. A handful of these rare insignias stil exist in private collections. Unfortunately due to copyrights I can not post photos of them here.

The gauleiter tabs are very well known as Koch continued to wear them during the war right up until 1945. The others are very rare and only rarely seen in photos and collections.


Mark
Mark,
-Great info!!! I believe the trip you speak of has to be the picture of Koch that I remember. I did not know Grohe was on the trip with him and wore the tabs as well. You said that Selzner wore the tabs a few months later, but was there any other NSDAP members that were allowed to garner the tabs? I appreciate your info as usual!!!

Pitino

Pitino
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Re: Reich Hauptdienstleiter

Post by Pitino » 01 Nov 2009 01:26

-Here is an updated list of NSDAP-Members with their ranks ans dates. If you can add to the list or provide a date then please help out!!!

-(Pre-1939)

-Reich Hauptdienstleiter der NSDAP- (Reich Service Leader of the NSDAP)
-Dr. Gerhard Wagner- (Appointed in 1936)
-Hans Saupert- (Appointed September 1,1934)
-Fritz Reinhardt- (Appointed in summer-1934)
-Rudolf Schmeer- (Appointed in 1935)
-Dr. Leonardo Conti- (Appointed April 22,1939)

-(Mid 1939-May 1945)

-Hauptbefehlsleiter der NSDAP- (Senior Command Leader of the NSDAP)
-Hans Saupert- (Appointed April 20,1940)
-Friedrich Schmidt- (Appointed before September 26,1940)
-Fritz Reinhardt-
-Claus Selzner- (Appointed in 1941)

-Oberbefehlsleiter der NSDAP- (Upper Service Leader of the NSDAP)
-Helmuth Friedrichs- (Appointed as early as summer 1941)
-Otto Thierack- (Appointed August 20,1942)
-Rudolf Schmeer-
-Dr. Leonardo Conti-
-Erich Hilgenfeldt- (Appointed before September 26,1940)
-Ernst Leyser- (Appointed in 1943)
-Otto Marrenbach- (Appointed before September 26,1940)
-Dr. Fritz Todt-
-Albert Speer- (Appointed in 1942)
-Dr. Paul Ruoff- (Appointed before September 26,1940)
-Dr. Anton Lingg- (Appointed before September 26,1940)
-Hugo Fischer- (Appointed before September 26,1940)
-Heinrich Simon- (Appointed before September 26,1940)
-Herbert Backe- (Apponted May 23,1942)
-Fritz Mehnert- (Appointed before September 26,1940)
-Gotthard Urban- (Appointed September 26,1940)
-Walther Sommer-
-Georg Leibbrandt-

-Befehlsleiter der NSDAP- (Command Leader of the NSDAP)
-Dr. Leonardo Conti- (Held rank on September 26,1940, but later promoted to Oberbefehlsleiter)
-Richard Schaller-
-Georg Joel-
-Arthur Gorlitzer-
-Albert Miller- (Appointed November 9,1943)
-Ferdinand Grossherr-
-Karl Scharizer-
-Kurt Schmalz-
-Wilhelm Sieh-
-Peter Stangier-
-Karl Linder- (Appointed in April 1941)
-Herbert Parson-
-Fritz Reckmann-
-Hermann Rohn-
-Karl Holz- (Held rank util his promotion to Gauleiter in 1944)

-Hauptdienstleiter der NSDAP- (Senior Service Leader of the NSDAP)
-Karl Gerland- (Appointed April 20,1940, but later promoted to Gauleiter)
-Albert Hoffmann- (Appointed March 1,1941, but later promoted to Gauleiter)
-Fritz Schlessmann- (Later served as Acting Gauleiter so I am unsure if he kept this position)
-Gerd von Koerber-
-Wilhelm Kuhnreich- (Appointed mid-1941)
-Anton Wintersteiger-
-Heinrich Vetter- (Appointed April 20,1940)
-Dr. Richard Donnevert- (Appointed April 20,1940)
-Harry Henningsen-
-Alfred Hess-
-Rudolf Trautmann- (Appointed April 20,1940)
-Max Solbrig-
-Fritz Marrenbach- (Held this rank in 1942)
-Georg Tesche-
-Christian Opdenhoff-
-Georg Traeg- (Appointed September 9,1942)
-Karl Overhues-
-Karl -Otto Saur- (Held this rank in June 1943)
-Heinrich Peper-
-Dr. Walter Gross-
-Paul Giesler- (Appointed August 1940 and held rank until his promotion to Gauleiter in November 1941)
-Heinrich Siekmeier-
-Otto Gohdes- (Appointed in 1943)
-Karl Scharizer (Appointed April 24,1940, but later promoted to Befehlsleiter)
-Paul Simon-
-Hanns Oberlindober- (Appointed in April 1940)
-Fritz Tittmann-
-Friedrich Geisselbrecht- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Richard Büchner- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Franz Kutschera-

-Oberdienstleiter der NSDAP (Upper Service Leader of the NSDAP)
-Hermann Neef- (Held rank on September 26,1940)
-Willi Damson- (Held rank on September 26,1940)
-Karl Janowsky- (Appointed in 1940)
-Gerhard Klopfer-
-Friedrich Thimel-
-Viktor Brack-
-Walter Stang- (Appointed April 20,1941)
-Matthes Ziegler- (Appointed in 1941)
-Albert Bormann-
-Hubert Berkenkamp-
-Herbert Jaensch-
-Gustav Adolf Scheel- (Held rank until his promotion to Gauleiter of Salzburg on November 18,1941)
-Leonhard Jennes- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Otto Gohdes- (Held this rank on September 26,1940, but later promoted to Hauptdienstleiter)
-Robert Bauer- (Held thi rank on September 26,1940)
-Dr. Theodor Adrian von Renteln- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Dr. Theo Hupfauer- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Dr. Bodo Lafferentz- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Claus Selzner- (Held this rank on September 26,1940, but later promoted to Hauptbefehlsleiter)
-Dr. Walter Schultze- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Dr. Walter Gross- (Held this rank on September 26,1940, but later promoted to Hauptdienstleiter)
-Dr. Ludwig Fischer- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Arno Schickendanz- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Helmut Sundermann- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Rolf Rienhardt- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Wilhelm Baur- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Heinrich Korth- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Wilhelm Weiss- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Albert Miller- (Held this rank on September 26,1940, but later promoted to Befehlsleiter)
-Albert Hanssgen- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Werner Kropp- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Arnold Raether- (Held this rank on Septenber 26,1940)
-Walter Schulze- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)

-Dienstleiter der NSDAP- (Service Leader of the NSDAP)
-Johannes Dietel- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Dr. Kurt Blome- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Alfred Ingemar Berndt- (Held this rank on September 26,1940)
-Erich Müller- (Held this rank in March 1943)

Pitino
Last edited by Pitino on 04 Nov 2009 03:14, edited 3 times in total.

pavel michalek
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Re: Reich Hauptdienstleiter

Post by pavel michalek » 01 Nov 2009 03:51

Mark Costa wrote:In March 1939 before any official announcements or regulations were ever made public, Ley and several other high ranking officials made a state visit to Italy. It was the first time that any political leaders had worn the new 1939 style uniforms and insignias. The two gauleiters on the trip Erich Koch and Josef Grohe wore what has always been referred to as the Third Pattern Gauleiter collar tabs -- the eagles were not superimposed over the oakleaves and the stems actually curved inward towards the neck instead of outward.
00081182.jpg
Mark Costa wrote:Later during another 1939 trip to Italy Claus Selzner wore unique tabs that were never seen again. In all, there are at least 3 different designs of PL insignia higher than Hauptbefehlsleiter that were created but never sanctioned and quickly disappeared once the new designs were fully approved and regulations published.
00873583.jpg

Pitino
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Location: Elizabethtown, Kentucky

Re: Reich Hauptdienstleiter

Post by Pitino » 01 Nov 2009 04:10

pavel michalek wrote:
Mark Costa wrote:In March 1939 before any official announcements or regulations were ever made public, Ley and several other high ranking officials made a state visit to Italy. It was the first time that any political leaders had worn the new 1939 style uniforms and insignias. The two gauleiters on the trip Erich Koch and Josef Grohe wore what has always been referred to as the Third Pattern Gauleiter collar tabs -- the eagles were not superimposed over the oakleaves and the stems actually curved inward towards the neck instead of outward.
00081182.jpg
Mark Costa wrote:Later during another 1939 trip to Italy Claus Selzner wore unique tabs that were never seen again. In all, there are at least 3 different designs of PL insignia higher than Hauptbefehlsleiter that were created but never sanctioned and quickly disappeared once the new designs were fully approved and regulations published.
00873583.jpg
Pavel,
-Thanks for posting the pictures!!! That is the picture I was speaking of in my earlier comments. Much appreciation!!!

Pitino

Mark Costa
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Re: Reich Hauptdienstleiter

Post by Mark Costa » 01 Nov 2009 04:51

In the top photo from Pavel you can barely see Marrenbach with strange tabs on the left-- hard to see in this photo. The second only shows Ley -- Selzner is not in this photo.

Mark Costa

Pitino
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Re: Reich Hauptdienstleiter

Post by Pitino » 01 Nov 2009 04:55

-One thing that is puzzling me about my ranks!!! If Claus Selzner was ranked an Oberdienstleiter on September 26,1940 how in the world does he jump up 4 ranks to Hauptbefehlsleiter in 1941? It seems that his Hauptbefehlsleiter ranking must have come later on in the war. I guess with the war going on anything was possible ,but I have not seen any other NSDAP members making such a big leap in such a short time. If anyone can figure this out or provide me with a plausible answer then please do so!!!!! Thanks!!

Pitino

Mark Costa
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Re: Reich Hauptdienstleiter

Post by Mark Costa » 01 Nov 2009 16:23

If I am not mistaken his promotion to Hauptbefehlsleiter was posthumous. He died later in the war.

Mark Costa

Pitino
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Re: Reich Hauptdienstleiter

Post by Pitino » 01 Nov 2009 17:16

Mark Costa wrote:If I am not mistaken his promotion to Hauptbefehlsleiter was posthumous. He died later in the war.

Mark Costa
Mark,
-Your answer sounds more like it!!! Selzner died on June 21,1944. If he was given the appointment posthumously the time range seems much better. Jumping 4 ranks in 4 years seems way more plausible than 1 year!!! One thing though, I have seen where Selzner was Head of the Hauptschulung Amt in 1941 but according to my calculations Friedrich Schmidt held that post in 1941. Was he an Acting Leader? Do you know if Selzner was ever Head of the Hauptschulungs Amt and if he was then do you know the dates of his tenure?

Pitino

Pitino
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Re: Reich Hauptdienstleiter

Post by Pitino » 02 Nov 2009 09:20

- I have found some more ranks and some dates as well as some dates for my above master list. I will add these to my above master list after posting them here.

-Hauptdienstleiter
-Karl Gerland- (Appointed on April 20,1940, but later promoted to Gauleiter)
-Albert Hoffmann- (Appointed March 1,1941, but later promoted to Gauleiter)
-Fritz Schlessmann- (Later served as Acting Gauleiter, but I am unsure if he still kept this rank)
-Heinrich Vetter- (Appointed April 20,1940)
-Harry Henningsen-
-Dr. Richard Donnevert- (Appointed April 20,1940)
-Alfred Hess-
-Wilhelm Kuhnreich- (Appointed mid-1941)
-Heinrich Siekmeier-
-Paul Simon-
-Georg Traeg- (Appointed September 9,1942)
-Rudolf Trautmann- (Appointed April 20,1940)
-Fritz Marrenbach- (Held this rank in 1942)
-Fritz Tittmann-
-Franz Kutschera-
-Karl-Otto Saur- (Held this rank on June 5,1943)

-Dienstleiter
-Erich Müller- (Held this rank on March 31,1943)

Pitino

Pitino
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Re: Reich Hauptdienstleiter

Post by Pitino » 02 Nov 2009 17:51

Mark,
-I have asked you this question before. It's about Anton Wintersteiger being appointed Reich Hauptdienstleiter in 1938. You said he was definitely not appointed Hauptdienstleiter in 1938 and that it was more than likely a misprint on the Axis Biographical Research website. Well, I was viewing "Hitler's Political Generals" (The Gauleiters Vol. 1), by David Lyne-Gordon and he too has Wintersteiger being appointed NSDAP Hauptdienstleiter on March 11,1938. I wonder why they all think he was appointed to that high Post in 1938? I mean what posting could he have been appointed to that causes everyone to make this mistake? I was just wondering what you thought about it?

Pitino

Mark Costa
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Re: Reich Hauptdienstleiter

Post by Mark Costa » 02 Nov 2009 20:57

It is simply a mistake. Those books by Lyne Gordon are pretty much #$%#%. He simply took info from many places and published what he was able to bring together. Very little research if any was done in them. Wintersteiger was not a Hauptdienstleiter in 1938. He in fact held the rank of Deputy Gauleiter at this time and wore the uniform of one -- of which I have several photos.
After 1939, when the rank changes took place -- he of course was no longer able to wear the uniform of a deputy gauleiter as the "rank" was abolished. He was then made a Gau Hauptdienstleiter - which he wore collar tabs of --with deputy gauleiter armband because he still held deputy gauleiter "position". My guess is that who ever started the error, simply took his new 1939 rank and translated it into a 1938 promotion date as that is when he became a deputy gauleiter -- not knowing that these were actually two different dates of promotion.

Mark

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