The Rudolf Hess Files
The Rudolf Hess Files
Some of the files on Hess that are closed until 2017/18 have been opened recently. In 2007 file FO 371/26542 folios C1687G, C1954 and C2785G were opened.In 2008 file FO 181/969/12 was opened.File FO 1093/11/1 (folio33) remains closed until 2017.Some pages from FO 181/969/12 remain closed until 2018.
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Re: The Rudolf Hess Files
Do you know why they were closed or what is the subject matter?
Max.
Max.
Re: The Rudolf Hess Files
Surely very sensitive files on political matters.
Re: The Rudolf Hess Files
I have seen the content of these now open files. In FO 371/26542 C1687G a German peace move involving Sweden is passed on to the Foreign Office.It originates in Ankara and involves Baron von Lersner discussing at length the possibility of peace with the Swedish Charge d'affaires at the German Ambassador's residence.Also the King of Sweden is asked to mediate.He believes the time was not right to negotiate.This was early in 1941.This information is provided by MI6.In folio C1954 there is a single page, a letter dated 22 February 1941. It states that James Lonsdale Bryans has the backing of the Duke of Buccleuch as an emissary of Lord Halifax.Lonsdale Bryans is an amateur diplomat who was authorised early in the war to negotiate with Germany. He is about to or has had an interview with Foreign Minister R A Butler.The letter is sent by the Acting Director General of MI5 .They say Lonsdale Bryans is "indiscreet" and the FO should not have confidence in him. In C2785G there is an MI5 report on James Lonsdale Bryans. He is very much an admirer of the NSDAP. He was supposed to develop contacts with anti nazis but has been trying to contact Hitler and Ribbentrop.It is not clear if has done so.MI5 say that Lonsdale Bryans was "reticent and evasive " when interviewed by MI5.He had returned from Lisbon in 1940 and on the ship the SS Lima he travelled on he was with a courier working for the Germans.The courier, Ole Erik Andersen, was a Dane who was interned by the UK.He was found to be carrying the names of the Duke of Buccleuch, Lords Lymington and Brocket and Drummond Wolfe.These were supporters of a peace movement and the aristocrats were very enthusiastic supporters of Hitler. This report was again sent by the Acting DG of MI5. The FO minutes show that they cannot have Lonsdale Bryans jailed because of his FO contacts and his friendship with Lord Halifax.They ask MI5 to have Lonsdale Bryans "strictly watched". These files are part of the Rudolf Hess files although they are not specifically related to him.They are dated shortly before Hess flew to Scotland and were released in 2007 although they had been embargoed until 2017. In FO 181/969/12 there is information that was closed until 2018 but was opened in 2008.The file is from the British Embassy in Moscow.Some of what Hess told his interrogators was passed confidentially to Stalin.He was suspicious of the UK for not putting Hess on trial, so information which would be useful was sent to Stalin.The file is titled Chemical Warfare. Hess gave the names of two chemical mustard agents to MI6 claiming they did not smell of mustard and would be difficult to detect. The fact that Hess told MI6 that the Germans had a chemical weapon that did not smell is the only thing of significance here.What Hess concealed was the nerve agent Sarin which did not smell and the Allies only discovered after the war. The information was plausible but false as Hess was self disciplined enough not to help his enemies.Some pages from this piece are still embargoed until 2018 but most of it is now open.In FO 1093/11/1 (FOLIO 33) there are unregistered papers from Sir Alexander Cadogan ,permanent Undersecretary at the FO.The file will remain closed until 2017. These papers, along with FO 181/969/12 do not specifically relate to Hess.MI6 were holding Hess and they do not release any information.It is likely that the information in the files remain closed until 2017/18 as it is MI6 material.Recently, file FCO 90/19/1 (folio 114 and attachments) has also been closed for 40 years. It concerns Hess in Spandau in 1974. Information was sent in confidence by a third party who is still living and the file is closed at the National Archives(PRO).
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Re: The Rudolf Hess Files
Excellent information steiner41. Thank you.
Max.
Not everything is as it seems.Boby wrote:Surely very sensitive files on political matters.
Max.
- Helmut0815
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Re: The Rudolf Hess Files
Nazi Leader 'Mystery': Secret Rudolf Hess File to be Auctioned
regards
Helmut
Full story in english language here: http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 21476.htmlA dossier of documents apparently drawn up by Rudolf Hess after the Nazi leader's flight to Scotland in 1941 has been discovered, and will be auctioned in the US. Whether it will shed any light on the bizarre actions of the Deputy Führer is another matter.
regards
Helmut
Re: The Rudolf Hess Files
What has happened? Has the auction taken place?
Any news?
Any news?
Re: The Rudolf Hess Files
James Lonsdale Bryans was more competent in espionage than the Foreign Office give him credit for.He was working for Germany though. It says on the Dutch Wikipedia entry for him that his attempt to get to Germany was a 'backdrop' for Hess' flight to Scotland. They took place around the same time but were not connected. He played a double game in that he was officially going to see Detalmo Pirzio-Biroli and Ulrich von Hassell but it was really the son and father in laws Ribbentrop and Henckell. MI5 described him as 'sinister' during a visit to MI5 when he admitted to nothing, volunteered nothing and spoke at length on subjects in order to control the interviews.
He was on the FO's 'grey list'. It was Lord Brocket and the Duke of Buccleuch who were the main people involved in so called appeasers trying to stop the war. Rab Butler claimed that when he was Foreign Office Minister he was just trying to buy Britain more time to prepare for war but he and Lord Halifax would have both negotiated for peace with Germany if Halifax became PM.
Lonsdale Bryans would have made a lot more money with his book if he hadn't spoken to Kenneth de Courcey and Spencer Curtis Brown about it. de Courcey was MI6 and made suggestions that he rewrite parts of the book then told MI6. Curtis Brown was a publisher but had been in SOE and promptly told the Ministry of Information about the book. Many just did not believe that Bryans had the backing of the FO for a while and he was out of the game by March 1941 when he only had enemies at the FO. Thanks to the Official Secrets Act Bryans could not say exactly what he had been trying to do when living on Madeira in his book Blind Victory. The fact that he worked with a courier for the Germans on Madeira confirmed he was an agent for Germany.
He was on the FO's 'grey list'. It was Lord Brocket and the Duke of Buccleuch who were the main people involved in so called appeasers trying to stop the war. Rab Butler claimed that when he was Foreign Office Minister he was just trying to buy Britain more time to prepare for war but he and Lord Halifax would have both negotiated for peace with Germany if Halifax became PM.
Lonsdale Bryans would have made a lot more money with his book if he hadn't spoken to Kenneth de Courcey and Spencer Curtis Brown about it. de Courcey was MI6 and made suggestions that he rewrite parts of the book then told MI6. Curtis Brown was a publisher but had been in SOE and promptly told the Ministry of Information about the book. Many just did not believe that Bryans had the backing of the FO for a while and he was out of the game by March 1941 when he only had enemies at the FO. Thanks to the Official Secrets Act Bryans could not say exactly what he had been trying to do when living on Madeira in his book Blind Victory. The fact that he worked with a courier for the Germans on Madeira confirmed he was an agent for Germany.
Re: The Rudolf Hess Files
There's a lot about this in now open security Service file KV/2/2839. Lonsdale Bryans' MI5 file is in it (PF52446)
Not sure if these are available: PF47996 Brocket
PF54784 Andersen O.E.
Not sure if these are available: PF47996 Brocket
PF54784 Andersen O.E.
Re: The Rudolf Hess Files
Maurice Oldfield, DG of MI6 took files on Hess before they were thrown away from the SIS archive in the 1970s. They are in the Netherlands, probably held by a firm of lawyers and maybe forgotten about.
Lonsdale Bryans had officially the 'backing of the Duke of Buccleuch as an emissary of Lord Halifax.' He was really working unofficially for Lord Brocket to see what could be done to end Britain's war with Germany.
In FO181/969/12 Hess gave the names of three chemical agents.The first was made up, the other two were HN2 and HN3 blister agents in liquid form.Blister agents were not new but the fact that they had odourless chemical weapons was all that was significant. The Germans had by then the nerve agent Sarin ready for use.Tabun was nearly ready.
Lonsdale Bryans had officially the 'backing of the Duke of Buccleuch as an emissary of Lord Halifax.' He was really working unofficially for Lord Brocket to see what could be done to end Britain's war with Germany.
In FO181/969/12 Hess gave the names of three chemical agents.The first was made up, the other two were HN2 and HN3 blister agents in liquid form.Blister agents were not new but the fact that they had odourless chemical weapons was all that was significant. The Germans had by then the nerve agent Sarin ready for use.Tabun was nearly ready.
Re: The Rudolf Hess Files
The author Peter Padfield made a successful FOI request, with the inevitable redaction, for the 1987 RMP SIB Report into the death of Hess. One of the pages the MOD would not release was the 'suicide note' .Instead, they had the ill grace to give him a URL to an extreme right revisionist website that already had the note. The British don't like to see this information on the net.
Re: The Rudolf Hess Files
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 16915.html
The Foreign Office said it was aware of the sale and it had no reason to believe the file had come from its own archive. A spokesman added: “We do not comment on matters concerning the Secret Intelligence Service.” The government’s own papers on Hess will remain closed until at least 2017.
Re: The Rudolf Hess Files
Yes, the file is still in The Netherlands. Oldfield lost his security clearance before he died. That file is hot as you could be prosecuted under the Official Secrets Act in Britain if you brought it back there. The Foreign Office would be getting on to their lawyers if it turns up anywhere.
Re: The Rudolf Hess Files
The various reports[SIB] into the death of Rudolf Hess in Spandau are now freely avaialble online.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... erlin-1987
I have obtained various files from The National Archives on Hess. The bulk of them at the moment that I have is fron the period 1973-1974 in the run up to his 90th birthday. Some really intresting stuff in them that have been useful in my research on Hess and Spandau Prison.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... erlin-1987
I have obtained various files from The National Archives on Hess. The bulk of them at the moment that I have is fron the period 1973-1974 in the run up to his 90th birthday. Some really intresting stuff in them that have been useful in my research on Hess and Spandau Prison.