Hitler 1933

Discussions on all aspects of the NSDAP, the other party organizations and the government. Hosted by Michael Miller & Igor Karpov.
User avatar
Helly Angel
Member
Posts: 5053
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 20:00
Location: Florida, USA

Re: Hitler 1933

Post by Helly Angel » 17 Jun 2010 13:34

Thanks Mark and Mjölnir!! what year do you think is the march that I posted?

mjölnir
Member
Posts: 706
Joined: 18 Aug 2004 14:22
Location: Deutschland

Re: Hitler 1933

Post by mjölnir » 18 Jun 2010 10:18

I think your photo is from November 9th, 1937.
I see on your photo from left to right:
?, Adolf Hühnlein, ?, ?, Friedrich Weber, Hermann Göring, Adolf Hitler, Ulrich Graf, (behind the flag goup: Hermann Kriebel and Kolb), Wilhelm Frick (unter the stick of the flag), ?
Here a picture from http://www.ullsteinbild.de from the ceremony of November 9th, 1937.

Perhaps it will be a good idea, when we make an overview about the first two rows of each ceremony year by year:

i.e. for 1933:

?, ?, ?, Max Sesselmann, Alfred Rosenberg, Arno Schickedanz, Gottfried Feder, Walter Schulze
? , ? , Friedrich Weber, Hermann Göring (coat), Adolf Hitler, Hermann Kriebel, Ulrich Graf, Kolb

Rolf Reiner ? Jakob Grimminger (Reiner and Grimminger in black SS-uniforms)
Julius Streicher

mjölnir
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Mark Costa
Member
Posts: 2711
Joined: 26 Jul 2002 17:41
Location: USA

Re: Hitler 1933

Post by Mark Costa » 18 Jun 2010 12:20

In both Helly's and Mjolnir's photos the men on Friedrich Weber's right are Max Streck and Theodor Kuhn (with Kuhn being the ones next to Weber. In Helly's photo -- Adolf Wagner can been seen just behind Ulrich Graf's left shoulder under the saluting arm. Philipp Bouhler can be seen over Adolf Kolb's right shoulder between himself and Streicher. I have never been able to identify the men on both ends in Helly's photo.

Mark Costa

mapugu
Member
Posts: 991
Joined: 13 Oct 2007 17:53
Location: Westmecklenburg/Germany

Re: Hitler 1933

Post by mapugu » 18 Jun 2010 15:49

I think the first photo is from November 9th, 1935.
This pic was taken at the same location:
09.11.1935.JPG
At this day all this men including Hitler weared the new "blood order".
09-11-1933_Koenigsplatz.JPG
Manfred
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

jeffhan373
Member
Posts: 540
Joined: 27 Mar 2008 00:46

Re: Hitler 1933

Post by jeffhan373 » 18 Jun 2010 20:12

The man to the left of Adolf Huehnlein in Helly's photo might be Wilhelm von Grolmann, BO 77. I haven't found a photo with the man on the extreme right of the photo identified thus far.

Didn't Heinrich Trambauer carry the Blood Flag in the 1933 march, the only time he did this during any 9th of November ceremonies....

mjölnir
Member
Posts: 706
Joined: 18 Aug 2004 14:22
Location: Deutschland

Re: Hitler 1933

Post by mjölnir » 19 Jun 2010 15:12

I corrected the rows for 1933:


?, ?, ?, Max Sesselmann, Alfred Rosenberg, Arno Schickedanz, Gottfried Feder, Walter Schulze
Max Streck , Theodor Kuhn , Friedrich Weber, Hermann Göring (coat), Adolf Hitler, Hermann Kriebel, Ulrich Graf, Adolf Kolb

Rolf Reiner, Heinrich Trambauer?, Jakob Grimminger (Reiner and Grimminger in black SS-uniforms)
Julius Streicher

1934: no memorial march.

I work on the other marches (1935 - 1938). Who have a list of the rows from 1923?
mjölnir

mapugu
Member
Posts: 991
Joined: 13 Oct 2007 17:53
Location: Westmecklenburg/Germany

Re: Hitler 1933

Post by mapugu » 19 Jun 2010 19:54

Hello mjölnir,
here is another pic of the 1933 march :
09-11-33_smpic00059500.JPG
in front from left:
Rolf Reiner, Heinrich Trambauer(certainly), Jakob Grimminger, Julius Streicher
1st row from left:
Theodor Kuhn , Friedrich Weber, Hermann Göring, Adolf Hitler, Hermann Kriebel, Ulrich Graf, Richard Kolb
2nd row from left:
Max Streck, Max Sesselmann, ?, Alfred Rosenberg, (then not in this pic: Arno Schickedanz, Gottfried Feder, Walter Schulze)

Who is the man between Sesselmann and Rosenberg?
09-11-33_part_pic00059500.JPG
in this pic is he also to see between Sesselmann and Rosenberg (and Arno Schickedanz, Gottfried Feder, Walter Schulze are in this pic also visible):
09-11-33_smpic69021605.JPG
Regards,
Manfred
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by mapugu on 20 Jun 2010 07:09, edited 1 time in total.

jeffhan373
Member
Posts: 540
Joined: 27 Mar 2008 00:46

Re: Hitler 1933

Post by jeffhan373 » 19 Jun 2010 23:32

Here's an interesting photo of the 1933 march, used as the front cover to the ILLUSTRIERTER BEOBACHTER Nov. 18, 1933 (this issue is largely given over to coverage of the ceremonies in Munich, and has some excellent photos). Many of the marchers are identified in the caption. The man between Rosenberg and Sesselmann is Wilhelm Kolb, about whom I know nothing. It's possible he was related to Richard Kolb (visible at the right end of row one) but I couldn't find him in any reference books, and he doesn't seem to have been in these rows again, like Feder.

Interesting to note that Rolf Reiner carries the flag here. Perhaps Trambauer was just too weak to carry it for the whole march. Grimminger is the only one with the flag bearer's gorget, however.

I think the 1933 march was shorter than the ones which followed from 1935 on. Mjoelnir's right: in 1934 there was no march per se - Hitler and the Alte Kaempfer placed a wreath at the Mahnmal in a considerably scaled down ceremony.

Position in the first two rows was apparently quite contentious at times: Kriebel got furious in the later 1930s because Ulrich Graf had been given the position directly to Hitler's left...
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Mark Costa
Member
Posts: 2711
Joined: 26 Jul 2002 17:41
Location: USA

Re: Hitler 1933

Post by Mark Costa » 20 Jun 2010 15:24

In regards to the 1933 march I have a few doubts as to whether the man who carried the Blood Flag that day was Trambauer.
First the man -- who's face can not be seen in any photos, parts his hair on the opposite side as Trambauer did.
Second -- Trambauer was commited and institutionalized to the Psyciatric Ward of the Munich Hospital in 1932 !!
He never left it until his death in 1942. I doubt they would have let him out to carry the flag in 1933. He was suffering from seizures and was very erractic. And I also doubt the NSDAP would have taken the chance to let a man with such erratic behaviors, carry the flag in the first re-entactment. Although Reiner carries the flag in some photos I do not think the other man besides Grimminger is Trambauer.

I also find it interesting that the Beobachter lists the name of the man on the end as RICHARD Kolb as all other references to this man that I have seen state his name as ADOLF Kolb. I wonder who is wrong on the name?

Mark Costa

mapugu
Member
Posts: 991
Joined: 13 Oct 2007 17:53
Location: Westmecklenburg/Germany

Re: Hitler 1933

Post by mapugu » 20 Jun 2010 18:25

Hi jeffhan373,
thanks for this excellent frontispiece of the VB! You wrote: "(this issue is largely given over to coverage of the ceremonies in Munich, and has some excellent photos)" - if so - are you able to show these pics or is in this issue at least also a pic what showes the "fourth man" more clearly (perhaps Trambauer or not?) of the flagbearer group?
In this pic is his face better visible (but not really sharp) and it is not outward semblance to Trambauer:
09-11-33_ullstein-pic00075108.JPG
09-11-33 part ullstein-pic00075108+trambauer.JPG
The question is, who named this "forth man" if he is not Trambauer?

Hello Mark,
I am participate your assumption in respect of Trambauer - but I haven`t better explanation for this problem;
in case of Kolb I think the correct name is
RICHARD Kolb, Hauptman a.D.
(born 1891 in Bamberg, suicide 1945 in Bad Reichenhall).
NSDAP since 1921, after foundation leading member of the SA and ordnance officer of Adolf Hitler. In 1923 participant front line of "March to the Feldherrenhalle" in the front line. Then he was editor (Schriftleiter) of the BRZ (Bayrische Radiozeitung). He was a member of the so called "Gregor Strasser Zirkel" in Munich. Richard Kolb was from Oct. 1932 editor (Sendeleiter) of the "Funkstunde-Berlin" in broadcasting center Masurenallee. The radio-report about many "spontaneous" torchlight processions on 30th Jan. 1933 had been his own work. From February to April 1933 was Kolb intendant of broadcasting in Berlin and from April to October 1933 in Munich. He lost this job in result of cabal organized by Josef Goebbels and Eugen Hadamovsky and it was the finish of Kolbs broadcasting-career. On behalf of the staff of the deputy of the Führer became Kolb (without own university degree!) a professorship at the Jena university for "Wehrgeschichte und Wehrphilosophie"(1938-1945). He was also SS-Hauptstumführer (Ehrenführer) an served in the army during WW II. At war's end he was wounded and he killed himself in a sickbay in Bad Reichenhall.
source: Archivdatenbank des DRA Frankfurt

And who was Wilhelm Kolb - no idea - can anybody help in respect of him?
Manfred
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Helly Angel
Member
Posts: 5053
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 20:00
Location: Florida, USA

Re: Hitler 1933

Post by Helly Angel » 21 Jun 2010 05:09

The only KOLB listed in the official list of Blut Order badge is RICHARD, Kolb

The only Kolb listed in Coburg recipients list is HEINRICH Kolb, both from Munich.

mjölnir
Member
Posts: 706
Joined: 18 Aug 2004 14:22
Location: Deutschland

Re: Hitler 1933

Post by mjölnir » 21 Jun 2010 08:02

Yes, the memorial march goes 1933 from the Bürgerbräukeller to the Feldherrnhalle (Odeonsplatz). After the construction of the "Ewige Wache" with the two "Ehrentempel" at the Königliche Platz the march goes from the Bürgerbräukeller via Feldherrnhalle (Odeonsplatz) to Königlicher Platz.

1933 (from left to right):

?, ?, ?, Max Sesselmann, Alfred Rosenberg, Arno Schickedanz, Gottfried Feder, Walter Schulze
Max Streck , Theodor Kuhn , Friedrich Weber, Hermann Göring (coat), Adolf Hitler, Hermann Kriebel, Ulrich Graf, Richard Kolb

Rolf Reiner, Heinrich Trambauer?, Jakob Grimminger (Reiner and Grimminger in black SS-uniforms)
Julius Streicher

1934: no memorial march.

1935 (from left to right):
A. During the march:

Julius Streicher
?, Jakob Grimminger, ?

Hans Streck, Theodor Kuhn, Friedrich Weber, Hermann Göring, Adolf Hitler, Ulrich Graf, Hermann Kriebel, Richard Kolb
Adolf Hühnlein, Heinrich Bennecke, Max Sesselmann, Walter Schultze, Alfred Rosenberg, Arno Schickdanz, Max Amann, Heinrich Himmler (in black SS-coat)

B. later (at the Königliche Platz?:

Adolf Hitler
(1st row:)Hans Streck, Theodor Kuhn, Friedrich Weber, Hermann Göring, Julius Streicher, Ulrich Graf, Hermann Kriebel, Richard Kolb
(2nd row:) Adolf Hühnlein, Heinrich Bennecke, Max Sesselmann, Walter Schulze, Alfred Rosenberg, Arno Schickedanz, Max Amann, Heinrich Himmler
(3rd row:) ?,?, Rudolf Hess

1936 (from left to right):

Julius Streicher
?, Jakob Grimminger, ?

Adolf Hühnlein, Hans Streck, Theodor Kuhn, Friedrich Weber, Hermann Göring, Adolf Hitler, Ulrich Graf, Wilhelm Frick, Richard Kolb, Heinrich Himmler (in brown shirt)
(second row: ????)

1937 (from left to right):

Julius Streicher
?, Jakob Grimminger, ?

Adolf Hühnlein, Hans Streck, Theodor Kuhn, Friedrich Weber, Hermann Göring, Adolf Hitler, Ulrich Graf, Hermann Kriebel, Richard Kolb, Wilhelm Frick
(second row: ???)

1938 (from left to rigtht):

A. during the march:

Julius Streicher
?, Jakob Grimminger, ?
?, ?, ?, ?, Friedrich Weber, Hermann Göring, Adolf Hitler, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?

B. After the ceremony at the Feldherrnhalle:

Julius Streicher
?, Jakob Grimminger, ?

?, ?, ?, ?, Friedrich Weber, Hermann Göring, Adolf Hitler, Erich Raeder (Navy uniform), Wilhelm Keitel? (army uniform), ? (army uniform), Erhard Milch? (Luftwaffe uniform), ?, ?, ?, ?, ?

mjölnir

Mark Costa
Member
Posts: 2711
Joined: 26 Jul 2002 17:41
Location: USA

Re: Hitler 1933

Post by Mark Costa » 21 Jun 2010 12:24

Manfred:

Many thanks on clearing up the name for Richard Kolb. Obsiously the other sources are incorrect. After seeing the new photo you posted, I would say that the man carrying the Blood Flag in 1933 is NOT Trambauer. The man carrying the flag has a totally different hair line than Trambauer. And like I stated, Trambauer had already been committed to the asylum back in 1932.

Mark Costa

jeffhan373
Member
Posts: 540
Joined: 27 Mar 2008 00:46

Re: Hitler 1933

Post by jeffhan373 » 21 Jun 2010 16:01

I agree: if Trambauer had been committed to an asylum in 1932 there's no way he would have been allowed to carry the flag at such an important event. And he doesn't look much like the man in the march photos, either. I'll do some more digging to see if a name shows up in a contemporary newspaper - too bad the IB cover cropped him out of their shot!

I think Field Marshal von Blomberg was in the front row of the 1937 march. The 1938 march seems to have happened in two phases: from the Buergerbraeukeller to the Feldherrnhalle the "Spitzengruppe" consisted only of political figures (Heinz Pernet is in this group, for the first time, I think); for the second phase, from the Mahnmal to the Ehrentempeln, Keitel, von Brauchitsch, Raeder and Milch joined the front rank.

jeffhan373
Member
Posts: 540
Joined: 27 Mar 2008 00:46

Re: Hitler 1933

Post by jeffhan373 » 21 Jun 2010 16:45

In the VB for Nov. 10 1933, the following appears: "The Blood Flag was brought to the Buergerbraeukeller early in the morning. During the march it was alternately carried by Gruppenfuehrer Reiner and Sturmfuehrer Grimminger." No mention of the other man at all.

The best pre-1945 history of the Blood Flag I've found is a series of articles in 1935 issues of "Das Schwarze Korps" - "Die Blutfahne und ihr Traeger" - this is more about Grimminger than the flag per se, and it only goes up to 1926. According to this, Grimminger was one of the original escorts of the flag. The original bearer from 1926 - only referred to as "ein dienstaelterer SS-Kamerad" - moved to Thuringia soon afterward, and was replaced by Grimminger. Perhaps the man in the 1933 photos was this unnamed SS man?

The other escort, also unnamed in the article, worked in the same factory as Grimminger in 1922. The article says that all three men carried the flag during the Weimar 1926 rally. There is also a photo of the flag and its attendants at the Brunswick Rally in 1931; the escorts there are named Voggenauer and Zaske.

It's odd that this guy is omitted (or unnamed) from all press coverage of the 1933 March.The VB article in particular completely ignores his presence....

Return to “NSDAP, other party organizations & Government”