famous nazi children
Okay, my first post here... Great site... And sorry if it's somewhat repetitious of earlier ones.... I seem to remember reading that, and I realise this doesn't qualify as "evidence", that Frau Lina Heydrich did spend some of her later years petitioning the government of the BRD for pension rights, as her deceased husband had flown combat sorties against Allied planes which therefore qualified him, her, and/or their children to receive benefits in the post-war era?
/FRED
/FRED
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Matt Gibbs
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Himmlers daughter
Himmlers daughter does not run a retirement home for ex waffen ss veterans, I last read that she was still living in Germany and was a teacher, can anyone confirm this..? It is recorded that she is invloved with an SS veterans organisation, but think about it along the lines of the daughter of one of the US or other Allied veterans who helped their relatives organisation when they were one of the regiments who committed attrocities against German or Japanese forces, or is it still true that the victor decides what an atrocity is and denies all knowlege of doing such things to the 'other side'..?
I wonder if the same could be siad of the British veterans from the Boer war reciving pensions and help after allowing the outbreaks of disease and ppor treatment of the Boer homesteaders in 1900 - 1902..?
Its sometimes interesting to put these things in context I feel, specially when things happneed so long ago...
Regards
Matt Gibbs
I wonder if the same could be siad of the British veterans from the Boer war reciving pensions and help after allowing the outbreaks of disease and ppor treatment of the Boer homesteaders in 1900 - 1902..?
Its sometimes interesting to put these things in context I feel, specially when things happneed so long ago...
Regards
Matt Gibbs
Not quite the same as being part of an Einsatz Komando though is it? Did the Boer camps work like KZs? Don't remember reading any plans for 'Endlosung' for the Boer problem.........I wonder if the same could be siad of the British veterans from the Boer war reciving pensions and help after allowing the outbreaks of disease and ppor treatment of the Boer homesteaders in 1900 - 1902..?
Oversimplification=equivalence=excuse for the SS
Regards
-Nick
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Matt Gibbs
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Hmm
Hmm,
Perhaps you ought to read some of the letters written by the Boers, when they were allowed to, describing their plight, and you might be interested to research those people who were concerned Britons who tried to bring to the attention of those in the UK about the Boers and who were censored by the government at home who became embarrassed about the situation.
I am presenting the fact that in a far simpler way those veterans stood by and watched the plight of the Boers and often were ordered to do nothing to help them. [The Nazis just refined the methodology to suit their purposes] What I am also asking is whether you feel veterans of whatever organisation in theior old age are or are not deserving of care and who are we to judge whether Himmler's daughter is right or wrong to do it..? I don't believe she has anything to do with her father's attitude and crimes, do you..?
Just out of interest since it appears to be alluded that I might be presenting some 'excuse' for the existence of the SS, you oversimplify the term SS, I beileve you mean the SS who were a wholesale part of the KZ system whereas Joel alluded to her supporting the 'Waffen SS' an entirely different part of the organisation as many people know. As a form of elite troops no armed force in the world needs an excuse for elite troops, they are simply there for 'special ops' such as the SAS or the Marines, whom no one would compare in the modern world to the guards at the camp of Guantanamo bay.
There is of course no direct Equivalence between the SS and the Boer concentration camp guards, because politically and technologically they are worlds apart
Regards
Matt Gibbs
PS For info I would never present any excuse for any military actions, I lived with my Grandfather's severe ill health late in life after suffering from the war wounds of several MG34 rounds which shattered his shoulder in late 1939, not a pleasant experiance....
Perhaps you ought to read some of the letters written by the Boers, when they were allowed to, describing their plight, and you might be interested to research those people who were concerned Britons who tried to bring to the attention of those in the UK about the Boers and who were censored by the government at home who became embarrassed about the situation.
I am presenting the fact that in a far simpler way those veterans stood by and watched the plight of the Boers and often were ordered to do nothing to help them. [The Nazis just refined the methodology to suit their purposes] What I am also asking is whether you feel veterans of whatever organisation in theior old age are or are not deserving of care and who are we to judge whether Himmler's daughter is right or wrong to do it..? I don't believe she has anything to do with her father's attitude and crimes, do you..?
Just out of interest since it appears to be alluded that I might be presenting some 'excuse' for the existence of the SS, you oversimplify the term SS, I beileve you mean the SS who were a wholesale part of the KZ system whereas Joel alluded to her supporting the 'Waffen SS' an entirely different part of the organisation as many people know. As a form of elite troops no armed force in the world needs an excuse for elite troops, they are simply there for 'special ops' such as the SAS or the Marines, whom no one would compare in the modern world to the guards at the camp of Guantanamo bay.
There is of course no direct Equivalence between the SS and the Boer concentration camp guards, because politically and technologically they are worlds apart
Regards
Matt Gibbs
PS For info I would never present any excuse for any military actions, I lived with my Grandfather's severe ill health late in life after suffering from the war wounds of several MG34 rounds which shattered his shoulder in late 1939, not a pleasant experiance....
Hmm,
Perhaps you ought to read some of the letters written by the Boers, when they were allowed to, describing their plight, and you might be interested to research those people who were concerned Britons who tried to bring to the attention of those in the UK about the Boers and who were censored by the government at home who became embarrassed about the situation.
Or perhaps I already have - who knows? Still isn't the same thing as a deliberate government policy of mass murder, doesn’t even come close to what happened to the Native Americans either.
you oversimplify the term SS, I believe you mean the SS who were a wholesale part of the KZ system whereas Joel alluded to her supporting the 'Waffen SS' an entirely different part of the organisation as many people know
No its not, the Allies recognised no difference between the SS and the Waffen SS when the organisation was outlawed (arrest on sight) The separation of the two is a post-war construct by their supporters and apologists. When the Waffen SS was expanded after Poland where did the Totenkopf come from? Cross-posting was a regular occurrence.
KZ camps were frequently used by convalescing Waffen SS as R&R centres (not for the prisoners obviously)
Robin Lumsden on the subject
SS Regalia, page 82
This is next to a photo of several Waffen SS men being forced to unload a cart of dead concentration camp victims into a burial pit under armed guardLeft: When the British liberated the Belsen concentration camp on 17 April 1945, they found it staffed largely by wounded and recuperating officers and men who had been transferred in on a tempory basis from various battlefield Waffen-SS formations, and who continued to sport their unit insignia
I feel that any SS vet of that volunteered deserves nothing but contempt, the poor sods that were drafted towards the end are a different matter, and should be treated like regular army. Now you can claim that the Army committed atrocities - which is true but not on the scale, scope or with such relish as Adolf's 'political soldiers'What I am also asking is whether you feel veterans of whatever organisation in their old age are or are not deserving of care
Don't think I even mentioned her, however if she's supporting the SS in any way, shape or form think she's wrong, perhaps she should concentrate on doing good works for those her father victimised, rather than those who belonged to a criminal organisation and aided genocide, but that's up to her. I'm just stating my opinionand who are we to judge whether Himmler's daughter is right or wrong to do it..? I don't believe she has anything to do with her father's attitude and crimes, do you..?
There is of course no direct Equivalence between the SS and the Boer concentration camp guards
Thank-you for clearing that up, I get a little tired of attempts to tie up the two.
Are you saying the Marines at Guantanamo are the same as KZ guards? Has anyone been shot/murdered/beaten up (bearing in mind there are outside monitors passing though all the time? where are the mass graves and gas chambers so popular in SS camps?the Marines, whom no one would compare in the modern world to the guards at the camp of Guantanamo bay.
Great, my father copped a packet in the desert, my uncle was one of the first Int Corps guys into Belsen, and neither of them was prepared to give the Waffen SS the benefit of the doubt – especially my unclePS For info I would never present any excuse for any military actions, I lived with my Grandfather's severe ill health late in life after suffering from the war wounds of several MG34 rounds which shattered his shoulder in late 1939, not a pleasant experiance....
Regards
-nick
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Matt Gibbs
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Apologist
Maple;
Please don't attempt to provoke me by trying to suggest I am an apologist for the excesses of individuals within the KZ camps or the SS in general.
Thanks for reminding me about some of the texts in Mr Lumsden's books, he has indeed presented some very interesting information and in fact helped me himself in my researches. I recall seeing one of the pictures you mentioned in your post in one of his books.
Interesting to know that one of your relatives went to a KZ, I am sure that is an experience, especially to an Intelligence Officer, that he would never have forgotten.
[As an aside I'd be interested to know if you have read any of the several collections of letters published about the Boer War as this is a field I am also much interested in, especially recommendations for reading material. So much of it was published so long ago and is not easily available, most books published recently are very much generalisations...]
I must have misread something somewheres a long time ago when you point out that the Waffen SS and the SS are not different and were not classed so by the Allies, I believed they were seperate organisations....?
Thanks also for letting me know where you stand with your sympathy towards volunteer veterans who were members of the SS.
Sorry I haven't provided any quotes, I just never use that system but Himmler's daughter cannot in any way be supporting the SS which was of course declared an illegal organisation and disbanded in 1945.
With regards to my mention of the Marines, you will note I simply stated that they are elite troops that can't be compared to 'ordinary' camp guards, just like, in my opinion, the elite Waffen SS troops can't be compared to the average KZ guard, I didn't suggest any comparison with the Marines and KZ guards.
It's pretty obvious to one and all I should think that the wholesale genocide of a part of the population cannot compare to what happened to the Native Americans, but perhaps in their eyes it can, who knows..?
The nearest thing that does compare is the persecutions meted out by the sapnish in the inquisition who also goaded the populace into hatred of the Jews, as well as insisting on comformity with the church. Even that does not compare with the figures of persecution by the Nazis as the Spanish excesses resulted in the deaths of 'only' 50,000 jews, of course, who knows what the Dominican Inquisitionists could have done with technology available in the 20th century.
All this merely serves to illustrate the fact that once the state is able to subjugate the masses and get the man in the street to believe in what the state is doing is right then public opinion can be easily controlled, allowing the machine of the state and it's leaders to do what they decide is right.
It's amazing what human beings can do to each other when looking back through history isn't it.
Kind Regards
Matt Gibbs
PS Did your uncle have to interrogate the KZ staff he encoutered when he was at Belsen..? Did he ever contemplate writing his memoirs of that horrible time..? It must have been such a shock to see what one human is capable of doing to another.
Many thanks
MG
Please don't attempt to provoke me by trying to suggest I am an apologist for the excesses of individuals within the KZ camps or the SS in general.
Thanks for reminding me about some of the texts in Mr Lumsden's books, he has indeed presented some very interesting information and in fact helped me himself in my researches. I recall seeing one of the pictures you mentioned in your post in one of his books.
Interesting to know that one of your relatives went to a KZ, I am sure that is an experience, especially to an Intelligence Officer, that he would never have forgotten.
[As an aside I'd be interested to know if you have read any of the several collections of letters published about the Boer War as this is a field I am also much interested in, especially recommendations for reading material. So much of it was published so long ago and is not easily available, most books published recently are very much generalisations...]
I must have misread something somewheres a long time ago when you point out that the Waffen SS and the SS are not different and were not classed so by the Allies, I believed they were seperate organisations....?
Thanks also for letting me know where you stand with your sympathy towards volunteer veterans who were members of the SS.
Sorry I haven't provided any quotes, I just never use that system but Himmler's daughter cannot in any way be supporting the SS which was of course declared an illegal organisation and disbanded in 1945.
With regards to my mention of the Marines, you will note I simply stated that they are elite troops that can't be compared to 'ordinary' camp guards, just like, in my opinion, the elite Waffen SS troops can't be compared to the average KZ guard, I didn't suggest any comparison with the Marines and KZ guards.
It's pretty obvious to one and all I should think that the wholesale genocide of a part of the population cannot compare to what happened to the Native Americans, but perhaps in their eyes it can, who knows..?
The nearest thing that does compare is the persecutions meted out by the sapnish in the inquisition who also goaded the populace into hatred of the Jews, as well as insisting on comformity with the church. Even that does not compare with the figures of persecution by the Nazis as the Spanish excesses resulted in the deaths of 'only' 50,000 jews, of course, who knows what the Dominican Inquisitionists could have done with technology available in the 20th century.
All this merely serves to illustrate the fact that once the state is able to subjugate the masses and get the man in the street to believe in what the state is doing is right then public opinion can be easily controlled, allowing the machine of the state and it's leaders to do what they decide is right.
It's amazing what human beings can do to each other when looking back through history isn't it.
Kind Regards
Matt Gibbs
PS Did your uncle have to interrogate the KZ staff he encoutered when he was at Belsen..? Did he ever contemplate writing his memoirs of that horrible time..? It must have been such a shock to see what one human is capable of doing to another.
Many thanks
MG
I recently saw a documentary on Speer's son on the UK-based channel UK History. His architectural firm is quite successful, and is currently involved in the planning for a new riverside district in Shanghai, PR China.joel pacheco wrote:which reminds me, i do remember reading something about speer' son getting a contract to design a new downtown area of bejing for the olmpic games. (the son is also an architect.)