Bormann or Goebbels

Gott · Post by **Gott** » 16 Jul 2002 19:43

Through many years of Third Reich, Martin Bormann was not a famous figure. Some had never heard of him. But by 1945, his power was second only to Hitler. Goering was fired, Himmler escaped, but Goebbels was still loyal to Hitler at the end. So how did Bormann became more powerful than Goebbels?

Starinov · Post by **Starinov** » 16 Jul 2002 19:58

Bormann was a "Grey Eminence". He made himself so usefull to Hitler that he was unable to live without him. That made him very powerfull.

rkoy · Post by **rkoy** » 16 Jul 2002 20:01

i believe in the power of presence bormann was always there goebbels wasnt! so borman had more time to fill hitlers ears with what hw wanted him to hear......rodney

Christo · Post by **Christo** » 16 Jul 2002 21:47

rkoy wrote:i believe in the power of presence bormann was always there goebbels wasnt! so borman had more time to fill hitlers ears with what hw wanted him to hear......rodney

Thats the most important point, Bormanns presence as chief secretary was overwhelming. Nevertheless there were some other aspects, especially Hitlers disappointment about Goebbels lifestyle.

Ken Jasper · Post by **Ken Jasper** » 16 Jul 2002 21:50

Simple, as Secretary Bormann controlled all access to Hitler. He could and did control what Hitler saw and heard.

Oberst Mihael · Post by **Oberst Mihael** » 16 Jul 2002 21:57

Christo wrote:
rkoy wrote:i believe in the power of presence bormann was always there goebbels wasnt! so borman had more time to fill hitlers ears with what hw wanted him to hear......rodney

Thats the most important point, Bormanns presence as chief secretary was overwhelming. Nevertheless there were some other aspects, especially Hitlers disappointment about Goebbels lifestyle.

What about Goebbels's lifestyle? I guess I never heard anything about this.

avidan · Post by **avidan** » 16 Jul 2002 22:06

Ken Jasper wrote:Simple, as Secretary Bormann controlled all access to Hitler. He could and did control what Hitler saw and heard.

I agree, Just like in any Corporation, the real power is wielded by the burocrats.

:mrgreen:

Schmauser · Post by **Schmauser** » 16 Jul 2002 23:44

Starinov wrote:Bormann was a "Grey Eminence". He made himself so usefull to Hitler that he was unable to live without him. That made him very powerfull.

Bormann was the "Brown Eminence" refering to his time in the brown house. But apart from that I agree with you totally

~Regards Schmauser

Polynike · Post by **Polynike** » 17 Jul 2002 00:28

Jasper is correct. Bormann controlled all and every access to Hitler. Even Guderian in panzer leader testifies to the influence and power of Bormann over Hitler

White Leopard · Post by **White Leopard** » 17 Jul 2002 09:09

Everything that I have read about Borman has said that it wasn't so much the access as Borman's willingness to do all those tiresome little tasks involving paperwork. Many comments were made about Hitler's curious working style. Up at noon and a few hours in the office and then off to a lengthy lunch hour. Kurt Ludecke quoted the metriculous Count Reventlow as stating that "Hitler doesn't know how to work."

Hitler was never cut out to be an ordinary office worker. If he had, he would have become a common, average Austrian civil servant as his father wished him to be. In times of crisis and when action was required, such as during an election, in the midst of a military action, or conference of state, he could run tirelessly, like a steam engine; a marvel of effort and intense concentration. But the ordinary day-to-day jobs; the little petty things that state leaders are required to do must have bored him to death.

Borman was sharp enough to see his opening in this and by taking over the day to day routine and relieving Hitler of the endless minutea of the government, he wormed his way into Hitler's regard and made himself the indespensable man.

Gott · Post by **Gott** » 17 Jul 2002 10:34

Bormann might have controled what Hitler hear, but Goebbels controled what the German people hear

so i guess Bormann and Goebbels have the same power.

tyskaorden · Post by **tyskaorden** » 17 Jul 2002 10:46

Oberst Mihael,
You asked about the lifestyle of Reichsminister Goebbels. I think the other writers refered to his affairs with women other than his wife.

Best regards
Marcus Karlsson

Ken Jasper · Post by **Ken Jasper** » 17 Jul 2002 19:49

Goebbels did determine what the people heard. The people in Nazi Germany, however. made NO decisions, Hitler did. Thus by virtue of his position, Bormann had far more influence on what happened in the Reich and more power.

Gott · Post by **Gott** » 17 Jul 2002 20:09

Ken Jasper wrote:Goebbels did determine what the people heard. The people in Nazi Germany, however. made NO decisions, Hitler did. Thus by virtue of his position, Bormann had far more influence on what happened in the Reich and more power.

you are right, but did Hitler know anything about Bormann's increase of power? I think Hitler would like Goebbels more than Bormann, afterall, Goebbels was completely loyal to Hitler from the very beginning to the very end.

Brian Wagner · Post by **Brian Wagner** » 17 Jul 2002 20:19

Hitler found that Goebbels views and actions were too radical...

Hitler came to power using "legal" means, or what appeared to be legal means, while Goebbels would have rather strong armed his way into power.

While Goebbels was loyal in the end he had his boubts about Hitler before the war. He found Hitler to be passive and fealt that he didn't take action soon enough on many issues, there again Hitlers poor work ethic.

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