Did Hitler or Himmler ever kill anybody themselves ?

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White Leopard
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Up Close and Personal

Post by White Leopard » 27 Aug 2002 21:09

Yes, Himmler was prone to faint at the sight of blood. Or feel ill. Apparently his guts had more conscience than the rest of him. It is easy to sit behind a desk in a nice office and order the deaths of millions when they are no more than numbers on a record sheet. Quite another matter when you have to pull the trigger yourself.

Ovidius, no doubt Himmler's chickens were caught, cooped up and hauled away by truck to the slaughterhouse as they are in America. He wasn't required to do the deed himself. A fictional story I read had him hand over a chicken to his wife when they wanted one for dinner. She had to chop off it's head. He couldn't even do that. But, of course, this was fiction. :?

Hitler was an ordinary infantryman in WW1. He was a participant in large infantry attacks in the first battles of the war. These consisted of headlong charges against enemy lines/trenches. Or the repelling of headlong charges by the enemy against your lines/trenches. There is a good chance that he could have shot somebody in the course of these melees, but never noticed it much. Things get disordered in the course of such attacks and individual observation dissolves in chaos. There is a note that he had a sleeve torn apart by a bullet in one of them, so a lot of lead was flying about. It is very possible that he shot the enemy, but the record is lost.

Hitler, by the way, was a good shot with a handgun. A reporter who was interviewing him during a stroll in Berchesgaden in 1933 asked him what would he do if somebody attacked him while he was on a solitary walk such as the one they were taking. As a reply, Hitler had the reporter make a number of snowballs and throw them up into air. He then drew a pistol out of his pocket and shot them apart as they flew. Much like Annie Oakely. 8O The reporter was impressed by his skill and made note of the incident.
Last edited by White Leopard on 27 Aug 2002 21:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 27 Aug 2002 22:29

Ovidius,

No need to post that kind of offensive photos and your comments are off topic any way, this is not a discussion about present day animal treatment so drop it.

/Marcus

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 27 Aug 2002 23:32

Marcus Wendel wrote:No need to post that kind of offensive photos and your comments are off topic any way, this is not a discussion about present day animal treatment so drop it.


Sorry, but to start from the fact that the chicken farmer Himmler had been once sick during an execution, and deduce he was a coward who couldn't stand to see blood is more or less absurd :?

White Leopard wrote:He wasn't required to do the deed himself.


But he must have seen it, more than once, and the sight of something like this is enough :roll:

White Leopard wrote:Hitler was an ordinary infantryman in WW1. He was a participant in large infantry attacks in the first battles of the war.


Yeah, many people tend to forget that before being a Melder, he also fought in the trenches like the character heroes of Erich Maria Remarque :wink:

White Leopard wrote:There is a good chance that he could have shot somebody in the course of these melees, but never noticed it much. Things get disordered in the course of such attacks and individual observation dissolves in chaos.


As a dispatch runner/courier he had even more chances to shoot or be shot in clashes between patrols or during chases through the no man's land. Life on the frontline is not exactly a holiday.

White Leopard wrote:Hitler, by the way, was a good shot with a handgun. A reporter who was interviewing him during a stroll in Berchesgaden in 1933 asked him what would he do if somebody attacked him while he was on a solitary walk such as the one they were taking. As a reply, Hitler had the reporter make a number of snowballs and throw them up into air. He then drew a pistol out of his pocket and shot them apart as they flew.


Yeah, many people tend also to forget that he had been an old Frontschwein, who since 1919 always had a handgun with him and was pretty good at shooting. It's more convenient to lump him with the cowards, right? :mrgreen:

~Regards,

Ovidius

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HaEn
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iron cross

Post by HaEn » 28 Aug 2002 04:23

Der Schwarze Ritter wrote:Hitler must have killed someone, I believe he earned the Iron Cross for bravery.
He earned it for bravery in the field as a dispatch runner; a pretty dangerous job. HN.


-Daniel-

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 28 Aug 2002 04:34

Ovidius wrote:Sorry, but to start from the fact that the chicken farmer Himmler had been once sick during an execution, and deduce he was a coward who couldn't stand to see blood is more or less absurd :?

Yes, the source for the vomiting scene is apparently Karl Wolff. Not exactly a star witness. I find it hard to believe that anybody who had personally butchered ckickens, as I have, would be sickened at the sight of blood--unless it was my own. :mrgreen:
Last edited by Scott Smith on 28 Aug 2002 10:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 28 Aug 2002 08:48

Scott Smith wrote:Yes, the source for the vomiting scene is apparently Karl Wolf. Not exactly a star witness.


I have to loan Felix Kersten's book from the library and check out what he exactly tells... I remember that Kersten told that Himmler shrank at the moment he heard the sound of shots and could not look the scene. He was also very pale and staggered away. That feels like a shock.

Maybe Himmler together with his "experts" started planning "mantally less shocking killing methods" after that incident?

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 28 Aug 2002 10:39

Harri wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:Yes, the source for the vomiting scene is apparently Karl Wolff. Not exactly a star witness.


I have to loan Felix Kersten's book from the library and check out what he exactly tells... I remember that Kersten told that Himmler shrank at the moment he heard the sound of shots and could not look the scene. He was also very pale and staggered away. That feels like a shock.

Hmmm, now you've got me wondering if it was actually Kersten instead of Wolff. That is even less reliable coming from the hostile memoirs of his masseur instead of his self-serving adjutant.
:)

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Post by Lord Styphon » 28 Aug 2002 15:20

I'd first heard the story about it in the episode of The World At War concerning the Holocaust. The person who was relating it was Karl Wolff. He said that Himmler vomited on his (Wolff's) uniform.

Also, there were definately other witnesses who could have corroborated or destroyed Wolff's story. Whether they WOULD have, and if any are still alive today, is another question. The story is also believable because it concerns Himmler; if it were Heydrich, people would have questioned the authenticity.

Concerning the original question, I don't think Himmler ever killed anyone himself. I also don't know if Hitler ever did, but I wouldn't be surprised if he had.

Of the top Nazis, there was definately one who had killed people: Hermann Goering.

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Post by sylvieK4 » 28 Aug 2002 16:27

Sure, Hitler was a dispatch runner, but surely he did not begin his service on the front lines that way.

I imagine it is safe to say that he started out like other recruits - in the trenches with rifle in hand, exchanging fire with the enemy. He probably did kill during that time. It would not be surprising since this is what soldiers on both sides were sent to the front to do.

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Jeff O
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Post by Jeff O » 28 Aug 2002 17:47

It would be interesting if someone could locate some documents of Hitlers role. I'm sure there must be something.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 30 Aug 2002 17:10

Scott Smith wrote:
Ovidius wrote:Sorry, but to start from the fact that the chicken farmer Himmler had been once sick during an execution, and deduce he was a coward who couldn't stand to see blood is more or less absurd :?

Yes, the source for the vomiting scene is apparently Karl Wolff. Not exactly a star witness.


Another witness described Himmler's reaction to witnessing a mass execution as follows:

As the firing started, Himmler became more and more nervous. At each volley, he looked down at the ground .... The other witness was Obergruppenfuehrer von dem Bach-Zelewski...Von dem Bach addressed Himmler: "Reichsfuehrer, those were only a hundred....Look at the eyes of the men in this commando, how deeply shaken they are. Those men are finished ["fertig"] for the rest of their lives. What kind of followers are we training here? Either neurotics or savages."


Source of quote:

An Introduction to the Einsatzgruppen, by Yale F. Edeiken

http://www.holocaust-history.org/intro-einsatz/

Himmler was by no means the only one set aback by these mass slaughters. Auschwitz-Birkenau commander Rudolf Höss wrote the following in his autobiography (Phoenix Press edition, translated from the German text published in 1958 by Constantine FitzGibbon, page 147):

The killing of Russian prisoners-of-war did not cause me much concern at the time. The order had been given, and I had to carry it out. I must even admit that this gassing set my mind at rest, for the mass extermination of the Jews was to start soon and at that time neither Eichmann nor I was certain how these mass killings were to be carried out. It would be by gas, but we did not know which gas or how it was to be used. Now we had the gas, and we had established a procedure. I always shuddered at the prospect of carrying out exterminations by shooting, when I thought of the vast numbers concerned, and of the women and children. The shooting of hostages, and the group executions ordered by the Reichsführer SS or by the Reich Security Head Office had been enough for me. I was therefore relieved to think that we were to be spared all these blood baths, and that the victims too would be spared suffering until their last moment came. It was precisely this which had caused me the greatest concern when I had heard Eichmann’s description of Jews being mown down by the Special Squads armed with machine-guns and machine pistols. Many gruesome scenes are said to have taken place, people running away after being shot, the finishing off of the wounded and particularly of the women and children. Many members of the Einsatzkommandos, unable to endure wading through blood any longer, had committed suicide. Some had even gone mad. Most of the members of these Kommandos had to rely on alcohol when carrying out their horrible work. According to Höfle’s description, the men employed at Globocnik’s extermination centers consumed amazing quantities of alcohol.

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Scott Smith
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"Himmler was a chicken, as well as a chicken farmer.&qu

Post by Scott Smith » 30 Aug 2002 19:01

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Ovidius wrote:Sorry, but to start from the fact that the chicken farmer Himmler had been once sick during an execution, and deduce he was a coward who couldn't stand to see blood is more or less absurd :?

Yes, the source for the vomiting scene is apparently Karl Wolff. Not exactly a star witness.

Another witness described Himmler's reaction to witnessing a mass execution as follows:

As the firing started, Himmler became more and more nervous. At each volley, he looked down at the ground .... The other witness was Obergruppenfuehrer von dem Bach-Zelewski...Von dem Bach addressed Himmler: "Reichsfuehrer, those were only a hundred....Look at the eyes of the men in this commando, how deeply shaken they are. Those men are finished ["fertig"] for the rest of their lives. What kind of followers are we training here? Either neurotics or savages."

Source of quote:

An Introduction to the Einsatzgruppen, by Yale F. Edeiken

http://www.holocaust-history.org/intro-einsatz

Himmler was by no means the only one set aback by these mass slaughters. Auschwitz-Birkenau commander Rudolf Höss wrote the following in his autobiography (Phoenix Press edition, translated from the German text published in 1958 by Constantine FitzGibbon, page 147):

So who is being quoted here: Edeiken (Op Cit), Arad (Belzec, p. 8), Hilberg (Destruction, pp. 218-219, 646), or von dem Bach-Zelewski at Nuremberg? All going back to the original Höß story at the IMT. Sounds like academic incest to me.
(wink)

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Roberto
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Re: "Himmler was a chicken, as well as a chicken farmer

Post by Roberto » 30 Aug 2002 20:04

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Ovidius wrote:Sorry, but to start from the fact that the chicken farmer Himmler had been once sick during an execution, and deduce he was a coward who couldn't stand to see blood is more or less absurd :?

Yes, the source for the vomiting scene is apparently Karl Wolff. Not exactly a star witness.

Another witness described Himmler's reaction to witnessing a mass execution as follows:

As the firing started, Himmler became more and more nervous. At each volley, he looked down at the ground .... The other witness was Obergruppenfuehrer von dem Bach-Zelewski...Von dem Bach addressed Himmler: "Reichsfuehrer, those were only a hundred....Look at the eyes of the men in this commando, how deeply shaken they are. Those men are finished ["fertig"] for the rest of their lives. What kind of followers are we training here? Either neurotics or savages."

Source of quote:

An Introduction to the Einsatzgruppen, by Yale F. Edeiken

http://www.holocaust-history.org/intro-einsatz

Himmler was by no means the only one set aback by these mass slaughters. Auschwitz-Birkenau commander Rudolf Höss wrote the following in his autobiography (Phoenix Press edition, translated from the German text published in 1958 by Constantine FitzGibbon, page 147):

So who is being quoted here: Edeiken (Op Cit), Arad (Belzec, p. 8), Hilberg (Destruction, pp. 218-219, 646), or von dem Bach-Zelewski at Nuremberg? All going back to the original Höß story at the IMT. Sounds like academic incest to me.
(wink)


First quote: Edeiken quoting Arad, who in turn is quoting Hilberg, in whose work the eyewitness (who I don't expect to have been Höss) is presumably identified. Bach-Zelewski's remark to Himmler is quoted by this eyewitness.

As the firing started, Himmler became more and more nervous. At each volley, he looked down at the ground .... The other witness was Obergruppenfuehrer von dem Bach-Zelewski...Von dem Bach addressed Himmler: "Reichsfuehrer, those were only a hundred....Look at the eyes of the men in this commando, how deeply shaken they are. Those men are finished ["fertig"] for the rest of their lives. What kind of followers are we training here? Either neurotics or savages."


Second quote: Rudolf Höss, from his autobiography, Phoenix Press edition, translated by Constantine FitzGibbon from the German text published in 1958, page 147:

The killing of Russian prisoners-of-war did not cause me much concern at the time. The order had been given, and I had to carry it out. I must even admit that this gassing set my mind at rest, for the mass extermination of the Jews was to start soon and at that time neither Eichmann nor I was certain how these mass killings were to be carried out. It would be by gas, but we did not know which gas or how it was to be used. Now we had the gas, and we had established a procedure. I always shuddered at the prospect of carrying out exterminations by shooting, when I thought of the vast numbers concerned, and of the women and children. The shooting of hostages, and the group executions ordered by the Reichsführer SS or by the Reich Security Head Office had been enough for me. I was therefore relieved to think that we were to be spared all these blood baths, and that the victims too would be spared suffering until their last moment came. It was precisely this which had caused me the greatest concern when I had heard Eichmann’s description of Jews being mown down by the Special Squads armed with machine-guns and machine pistols. Many gruesome scenes are said to have taken place, people running away after being shot, the finishing off of the wounded and particularly of the women and children. Many members of the Einsatzkommandos, unable to endure wading through blood any longer, had committed suicide. Some had even gone mad. Most of the members of these Kommandos had to rely on alcohol when carrying out their horrible work. According to Höfle’s description, the men employed at Globocnik’s extermination centers consumed amazing quantities of alcohol.


A general reference to the impact that mass executions by shooting had on the psyche of those carrying them out, no mention of the Himmler incident that the first quote is about.

Smith should learn to read before writing.

And I guess you have to be a "Revisionist" fuss-maker to see any "academic incest" in the first quote - unless of course Smith can demonstrate that Hilberg is quoting Arad. :lol:

Academic incest at its finest is what one of Smith's favorite authors practices:

Germar Rudolf ist einer der produktivsten Autoren des "revisionistischen" Zitierkartells. Unter mindestens einem halben Dutzend Pseudonymen schreibt er und zitiert - am liebsten sich selbst. Besonders skurril wird dies, wenn Ernst Gauss (Germar Rudolf) ein Buch mit einem Beitrag von Manfred Köhler (Germar Rudolf) herausgibt, der sich seinerseits in einer Fußnote artig bei Ernst Gauss (Germar Rudolf) für die Überlassung von Material bedankt, um ein paar Fußnoten später auf Germar Rudolf (Germar Rudolf) Bezug zu nehmen.


Source of quote:

http://www.h-ref.de/ar/rudolf/werke.shtml

My translation:

Germar Rudolf is one of the most productive authors of the "Revisionist" quotation cartel. Under at least half a dozen pseudonyms he writes and quotes – preferentially himself. That becomes particularly bizarre when Ernst Gauss (Germar Rudolf) issues a book with an article by Manfred Köhler (Germar Rudolf), who in a footnote duly thanks Ernst Gauss (Germar Rudolf) for the material made available and makes reference to Germar Rudolf (Germar Rudolf) a few footnotes later.

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 30 Aug 2002 21:36

The point, which the Roberto obviously didn't get, is that Höß appears to be the original source for *the Nazis wet their pants at the sight of blood* argument. Of course, maybe Höß was just supporting some other smoking-gun when he testified at Nuremberg, followed by Bach-Zelewski later at Nuremberg.

Anyway, Fiddler & Funk citing Fuddler & Fink and vice-versa, going back to the statements of Nazis under duress at the Nazi War Crimes Trials, does not make it more true--in spite of the red-herring regarding Germar Rudolf, a Thoughtcriminal who risks deportation from the USA and imprisonment in Germany for publishing under his own name.
:)

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 02 Sep 2002 20:31

Scott Smith wrote:The point, which the Roberto obviously didn't get, is that Höß appears to be the original source for *the Nazis wet their pants at the sight of blood* argument.


That's not an argument, but a statement Höss wrote in his memoirs in Polish captivity.

And he was not the only one who spoke or wrote about how the daily bloodbaths of screaming and crying women and children understandably affected the psyche of even hardened killers, turning them into what Bach-Zelewski called "either neurotics or savages".

But he stated nothing about the execution witnessed by Himmler, as Smith suggested - and is now conveniently trying to gloss over.

Scott Smith wrote:Of course, maybe Höß was just supporting some other smoking-gun when he testified at Nuremberg, followed by Bach-Zelewski later at Nuremberg.


Höß' quoted statement was taken from his autobiography, not from any deposition at Nuremberg.

And Smith's "maybe this, maybe that" - contentions are irrelevant in the absence of any evidence supporting them.

Scott Smith wrote:Anyway, Fiddler & Funk citing Fuddler & Fink and vice-versa, going back to the statements of Nazis under duress at the Nazi War Crimes Trials, does not make it more true


I guess you have to be a "Revisionist" to see anything wrong with a renowned scholar citing the previous research of another renowned scholar.

And what's that "under duress" stuff supposed to mean, Mr. Smith?

Can you demonstrate that Höss, Bach-Zelewski or any other defendant or witness at the Nuremberg trials or any subsequent trials made any of their statements under duress?

Or is that just some more of the bullshit a true believer like yourself badly wants to believe?

Scott Smith wrote:--in spite of the red-herring regarding Germar Rudolf, a Thoughtcriminal who risks deportation from the USA and imprisonment in Germany for publishing under his own name.
:)


Well, Rudolf himself didn't state that he had adopted his rather dishonest practice of quoting pseudonyms of himself as fake "authorities" supporting his nonsense in order to avoid criminal prosecution, did he?

This is how Rudolf explained his reasons for splitting himself into many:

Germar Rudolf wrote:My conclusions were that one obviously had to be at the same time an engineer, a chemist, a toxicologist, a historian and a perhaps even an barrister to be accepted as an expert witness at a German court. The legal process being so perverted in Germany, we decided to mock it by inventing a person with all these features, but then we realized that this would be a bit unrealistic, so we split that person into many.


Source of quote:

http://www.h-ref.de/ar/rudolf/werke.shtml

See, Mr. Smith, if you make a statement against better knowledge, that's called a lie.

If you make such a statement knowing that I can easily refute it, that's called a stupid lie.

Have a nice evening.

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