Third Reich lessons for today

Discussions on all aspects of the NSDAP, the other party organizations and the government. Hosted by Michael Miller & Igor Karpov.
Ezboard

Third Reich lessons for today

Post by Ezboard » 29 Sep 2002 14:15

Stuart Anderson
New Member
Posts: 1
(12/21/00 4:10:47 pm)
Reply Third Reich lessons for today
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings, Gentlemen (and Ladies if there are any present)! First, for those who knew me as sea12354, you will note that I have become a registered member. This change is due solely to the attitudes and loyalty to truth that I have seen all of you demonstrate in this forum. I am humbled to be in your midst.

The topic that I would be interested in hearing from all of you about is as follows: The rise of the National Socialists, from an obscure association of a half dozen workers, to a major political and social force affecting the entire world, is a phenomenon that deserves serious study not only as a matter of history but also from the perspective of what we can learn from it that is cogent to today's geopolitical environment. More specifically, what did the National Socialists do that can be successfully replicated today in a modern industrial country? What features, while not directly applicable today, are now present in different forms that people may not recognize as analogous? Obviously there are some features that are no longer "politically correct" but I posit that, if an ambitious and cunning group of individuals were to follow the general blueprint, the phenomenon of a rise from insignificance to international power could be repeated. I hasten to add that I am not looking to stir up a bunch of militia men in Montana to take over the world--my point is that the means to power are not exclusively for the use of evil tyrants. The National Socialist "road to power" (Shirer) must have used methods that even today would still be considered "legitimate" political tools, methods that could (are being?) used today.

I came across this line of thought recently when one of my children asked me about the Brown Shirts. After I explained to him what they were, he said, "I'm glad we don't have that kind of politics anymore, with people getting killed in the streets." For an instant I agreed with him, but then I thought, "How can something so successful be simply given up?" and the answer followed immediately, "It has not been given up, it's been painted a different color." Hitler had Brown Shirts to break up and disorganize his opponents, and we Americans have soft money political TV advertising and Richard Nixon's dirty tricks specialists--same function, different machine!

To sum up, What were the vital political mechanisms, what analogs are in use today, and which if any are no longer feasible in our current environment? All of your comments will be appreciated.

Stuart

George Huelse
Unregistered
(12/21/00 4:48:41 pm)
Reply The Rise, etc...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Rise of the NSDAP was due to a whole mix of extraordinary events happening all at once.

First you have a nation that is shattered by economic ruin, warfare, the destruction of a whole generation of youth (WWI) and ultimately the very real possibility of a socialist revolt. Times were bad to say the least.

Then you have the NSDAP. A totally inept, political confused party with really no leader. W/O AH it would have faded into history w/o even a footnote in a history book. But it did have AH. This charismatic and machiavellian corporal had a gift for oration and political cunning. What the people wanted in Germany was action and change, and he promised it. He promised it now.

This whole mix up of events lead to the rise of the Third Reich. Could this happen again? Sure, we've seen time and time again a charismatic leader step into power during a time of crisis. Some of them loyal and decent followers of democracy, others candidates for the position of anti-Christ.

Lastly, it appears that you hinted at "brownshirtism" being a viable political alternative. I don't think so in the context of true democracy. Democracy only works if you have the free exchange of ideas and ultimately a vote by the masses. Democracy must stamp out any "brownshirtism" before it turns into a mess.

Good day.

Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 116
(12/22/00 8:50:18 am)
Reply Re: The Rise, etc...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with most of George's post. However, the last part begs the question of what exactly is "Brownshirtism"? As soon as "democracies" begin to silence their critics, then a *free-exchange of ideas* becomes myth or propaganda. The Weimar Republic, though libertine, was hardly a liberal democracy; at best it can be described as a weak coalition of brutal and corrupt factions. Though given much to work with in terms of talent, the regime had no direction or purpose, and even without Hitler could hardly have been considered successful or vibrant. It served its postwar purpose for the Great Powers so *well* that there was a sharp reaction and stiff public challenge to its very legitimacy.

Mr Reichel
Unregistered
(12/22/00 9:40:57 am)
Reply I totally disagree
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think many people feel the way george feels, that NS was nothing without Hitler. I think peple with this opinion are missing an important piece of the puzzle. The biggest piece of the puzzle is that Germany was involved. Were was Hitler in WWI? Germans always have been racist, and still are today, no matter what you hear in the media, or what they say on the contrary; Germany is still incredibly racist. How many racist political parties were there in Germany during the rise of National Socialism? IF I am not mistaken nearly all politics in Germany were racist at the time.

Hitler was an incredible man of course. But lets go back to world war I. Germany was a menace then, and for what? I am learning that Germanys involvment in that war was also race related. I may be way off here, but this is just my opinion. I don't really want to get involved in that argument, becuase I have few facts on the matter, so don't even bother commenting on that. I really don't know what the hell I am talking about, but my point is that Germany was a world power in ww1, and ww2, and could be a world power in 10 years from now, who knows. Hitler couldn't be in all 3 places at once. Not to mention the wars prior to WWI involving germany. I think there is something in the germans genes (culture) (and don't give me some liberal faggot "race doesn't create culture" BS) that causes them to be incredibly racist, and feel the NEED to basically dominate other races, and just kick ass. I am sorry, I am a little ripped right now, but I hope you can understand my point. Even if it is doesn't sound like the most intelligent post ever read.

My point above all is that I think Germany was destined to blow up sooner or later. With or without Hitler. Has anyone heard of this new guy Haider? You shouldn't doubt for one second that he has the potential to create a 4th Reich that could make the 3rd look like little more than a looting expidition, because he has the attention of ALL of europe regarding immigration of 3rd world people into europe, and nobody wants that. He could get all europe to first say to hell with immigrants, thene after he has reached his goal of "elimination of ALL immigrants from austria" who knows,
maybe the rest of europe will see that and want a piece of the pie. Maybe they would all join together in a coalition against unwanted immigrants, and form a separitist military alliance, wich america would have no prayer against, if america itself didn't eventually decide to join. Then it could escalate to god only knows what, i.e. elimination of all 3rd world people, period. To what degree who knows. I really think this guy has the potential to be the next Hitler. Go ahead and laugh, people laughed at Hitler a lot louder than they are laughing at Haider!!!

Stuart Anderson
New Member
Posts: 3
(12/22/00 2:45:18 pm)
Reply George & Scott--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sorry I didn't make my point more clearly. I am suggesting that "brownshirtism" has always been a political tool; perhaps a less context-dependent description would be "disruption of opposition and intimidation of the populace." Hitler had Brownshirts, and later, the Gestapo; the bumbling Richard Nixon had HR Haldeman and the White House Plumbers; the Soviets had the Secret Police. My theory is that every successful political machine employs these functions to a greater or lesser degree, and my question is, how are these activities pursued today? Computer hackers? International money market manipulators? Independent contractors? Who's doing it today, and what methods are considered legitimate and which must remain clandestine?

Stuart Anderson
New Member
Posts: 4
(12/22/00 3:05:26 pm)
Reply Mr. Reichel
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fifteen hundred years ago, the Angles, Saxons, Normans, "Germans", and even the Italians would have said that it was the Scandanavians, the Vikings, that were the scourge of the earth, and they probably believed in their hearts that the Vikings were the way they were because of something inherent in their nature and that it was their destiny to be the way they were. The gene pool hasn't changed that much in 1500 years, but I doubt that you could convince many people today that the Scandanavians still harbor such tendencies in their inherent nature! I do not accept the theory that "it's just something about the German people, it's their nature" to be racist or militarist or to like beer. (Well, I might concede the beer part.) It may well be that geopolitical and social forces have pushed the German people in certain directions many times in the past thousand years, but that is not "in their nature", that is a matter of circumstance. I'm not being an apologist--I'm pointing out that to explain something as "in their nature" is no explanation at all, and, worse than that, it relieves the believer from the responsibility of looking for a truer answer.

My radar goes on whenever I encounter the word "destiny". This is another great obscurer of truth. It is occult, by definition beyond reason and logic. It is a surrender to those who would tell you your destiny, a submission of your will to theirs.

TonyEH
Unregistered
(12/22/00 3:39:19 pm)
Reply ???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>I think there is something in the germans genes (culture) (and don't give me some liberal faggot "race doesn't create culture" BS) that causes them to be incredibly racist, and feel the NEED to basically dominate other races, and just kick ass. I am sorry, I am a little ripped right now, but I hope you can understand my point.<<

What a disgusting thing to say. How can you sit there and type such utter nonsense? Do you even know any German's? It sounds like you have been reading too much Daniel Goldhagen. What country do you know that was not racist in some element during the thirties and forties, or even today?
You are talking rubbish.

Tony

George Huelse
Unregistered
(12/22/00 5:33:51 pm)
Reply Hmmmm...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't take offense to Mr. Reichel's statement. After all he confessed it was the Schnapps talking didn't he? Or as my grandmother taught me, "a drunken man's words are a sober man's thoughts." :^)

Anyway, what I attempted to mean about "brownshirtism" is the extra-political, illegal activity used by some political parties to tilt the balance. I didn't mean to suggest a democracy should destroy legal means of gaining power, but trying to keep the playing field free of illegal activities. Unfortunetly, as the original poster pointed out, this type of activity was not confined to 1920/30s Germany. It has been used either through force or finance for centuries. We must always be on guard for such a thing.

Later.

photosammler
Member
Posts: 26
(12/22/00 6:58:02 pm)
Reply Mr. Reichel's opinion
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<Germans always have been racist, and still are today, no matter what you hear in the media, or what they say on the contrary; Germany is still incredibly racist.>

Where do You come from, Mr. Reichel ? Although Your name (if it is) sounds german, I can't believe that You come from germany, austria or switzerland, neither do I think, that You have ever been there.
What evidence do You have ? Eye-witness ?,heard-from-somebody-who-heard-from-somebody ?
Do You really think, that some right-wing-biased idiots,who are not even able to speak in complete, sense-making sentences, are representative for a 80 million people ?
Why do You insult a nation, that supports democracy in 3rd world countries and still pays for deeds done some 60 years ago ? What should we germans do, that we will be not regarded anymore in the entire world as racists, nazis and mass-murderers ? We have one of the most liberal immigration-laws in europe, if not in the world. We have one of the most human constitutions, given in 1948 by liberal, democratic statesmen.
I can't believe that You really mean what You're writing.But if it is so, are You no racist ?

George Huelse
Unregistered
(12/22/00 7:20:12 pm)
Reply Of Name.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reichel can also be a Czech name.

Stuart Anderson
New Member
Posts: 5
(12/24/00 2:12:15 pm)
Reply Summary: NS political success required...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) a charismatic and machiavellian leader possessing superb oratory and political skills
2) a central dogma that "locks in" a large portion of the voting population so that they feel that they are already or can easily adapt to becoming a member--in this instance, the ingredients were a) racial prejudice (fear of those not like me) b) economic injustice (fear of poverty) and c) nationalism (fear of international humiliation and/or domination)
3) financial resources--primarily, if I am not mistaken, in this instance, large industrial and banking figures
4) mechanisms that disrupt and/or discredit opposition parties
5) a background of social and economic distress

Have I missed anything?

Return to “NSDAP, other party organizations & Government”