The Reichstag Fire

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DavidFrankenberg
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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 28 Jul 2019 13:54

von thoma wrote:
28 Jul 2019 02:58
What kind of health troubles had VDL ?
He always stays crouched.
It is said that he was drugged on purpose by the nazis during the trial : he should not talk too much, you understand ?
That means he had interesting things to tell... indeed possibly compromising for the nazis.

john2
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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by john2 » 18 Aug 2019 21:25

I just finished reading "The Reichstag Fire" by Fritz Tobias and it is the most detailed account I have yet read of the story. Going over all the details would make this post too long - I suggest any serious person read the book themselves, which can be downloaded for free if one does a google search. Tobias makes a convincing case that Van der Lubbe set the fire on his own. In the years since the fire all sorts of rumors have gone around saying the nazis did it - but there is never anything to back them up. At the Nuremburg trials Goering would not have had any reason to hide the truth and yet he denied being involved. In the link DavidFrankenberg gave the "new evidence" is a statement by a storm trooper - Hans Martin Lennings. He claims that he drove Van der Lubbe to the Reichstag after the fire had started. Apparently he signed a statement certified by a court in 1955 that was to be released after he died - which was in 1962. While certainly interesting it's like all the other accounts - nothing to back it up and all years after the fact. Now I don't know what his reason would be for lying and yes the circumstances of the fire were fishy but going by the facts this new account means nothing.

john2
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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by john2 » 19 Aug 2019 06:07

Sorry to double post but I thought I would add this link https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us They show that there are flaws in Lennings account.

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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by Avalancheon » 20 Aug 2019 07:52

It is surprising that no one has mentioned the closing argument of Robert Jackson at the Nuremberg trial. He was of the opinion that the Reichstag fire was intentionally set on the orders of Herman Goering:

"The large and varied role of Goering was half militarist and half gangster. He stuck his pudgy finger in every pie. He used his SA musclemen to help bring the gang into power. In order to entrench that power, he contrived to have the Reichstag burned, established the Gestapo, and created the concentration camps."

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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by john2 » 20 Aug 2019 16:40

Interesting. I was not aware of that statement but even so it doesn't make it true. At the Nuremburg trial the case against Goering - for the fire anyway was pretty weak. They had 2 people I believe one which claimed he overheard Goering talking to his associates saying that he set the fire, this was a day or two I believe after the Reichstag fire. The other was someone who claimed that in 1942 at Hitler's birthday party I believe Goering said "The only person who really knows the Reichstag is I for I set it on fire!" Goering of course denied the claims and there was nothing to back them up. Which is the whole point - if the nazis did set the fire it was their greatest plot as no one has ever had any hard evidence linking them to it.

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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by Avalancheon » 24 Aug 2019 01:57

john2 wrote:
20 Aug 2019 16:40
Interesting. I was not aware of that statement but even so it doesn't make it true. At the Nuremburg trial the case against Goering - for the fire anyway was pretty weak.
Robert Jackson was the chief prosecutor during the primary war crime trial against Nazi Germany. Whether you agree or disagree, his comments carry some weight.
john2 wrote:
20 Aug 2019 16:40
They had 2 people I believe one which claimed he overheard Goering talking to his associates saying that he set the fire, this was a day or two I believe after the Reichstag fire. The other was someone who claimed that in 1942 at Hitler's birthday party I believe Goering said "The only person who really knows the Reichstag is I for I set it on fire!" Goering of course denied the claims and there was nothing to back them up. Which is the whole point - if the nazis did set the fire it was their greatest plot as no one has ever had any hard evidence linking them to it.
With regards to state crimes against democracy, this is the norm, not the exception. The state is better organised and has more resources than any criminal organisation. They are better able to cover up their crimes and hide the truth.

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Prof.MacCarthy
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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by Prof.MacCarthy » 24 Aug 2019 10:12

It is today well established that Hitler exploited but did not order Reichstag fire. But it is not well known at all that communists indeed were thinking of their bloody revolution at that time. Their propaganda was very violent calling openly for taking up arms and for disarming SS and SA. Communists demented as they were softly speaking were thinking that Nazism is the last stage of capitalism, it will fall very soon, they should help with this also of course and after this communist revolution will happen.

Just before Reichstag fire communist newspaper Red sailor was calling: Workers to the baricades! Forward to victory! Fresh bullets in your guns! Draw the pins of the hand granades!

Marinus van der Lubbe who was a bit demented himself felt to such red propaganda of his superior thugs. Communists saw Reichstag as a simbol of bourgeois democracy.

So for conclusion German communists which were in fact just part of international communism led from Moscow helped Hitler to gain dictatorial powers in 1933 as Stalin helped Hitler to start WW2 in 1939 with their joint attack against Poland.

Source:

Hitler beyond Evil and Tyranny, page 282

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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by john2 » 26 Aug 2019 23:17

Reply to Avalancheon - I understand what you're saying. I wasn't there so obviously I can't and don't think anyone can say for certain the nazis weren't some how involved. One of the things about the fire was the lack of accomplices for Van Der Lubbe. As Tobias said if it was a nazi plot surely accomplices would have been found albeit dead. It was this that made the nazis angry. According to Tobias the following account can be established, this is a very brief summary- Around 9pm I believe eyewitnesses saw someone climbing up to a balcony on the Reichstag building and breaking in through a window - presumably Van Der Lubbe. Soon after a policeman fired at him but missed - if it was a nazi plot they would have been foiled had the bullet not missed!

The next day a police report was given to Goering. The report suggested that only Van Der Lubbe could have set the fire since no one else was found and he confessed. Goering didn't like the report and changed it so much the police detective said "this is a political document" and made Goering sign it. The nazis insisted that there were accomplices and in Goering's version there were around 10. Interestingly it was Goering who came up with the tunnel theory - he claimed the communist Reichstag members smuggled incendiary materials into the basement through a tunnel that linked the Reichstag to other buildings. Van Der Lubbe's accomplices must have come in and left through it. A glaring hole in this is why Van Der Lubbe who had come from Holland and only been in Berlin for 2 weeks would be needed. The communists later turned things around - Van Der Lubbe's accomplices were nazis and it was they who had used the tunnel...

Avalancheon
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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by Avalancheon » 03 Sep 2019 16:14

In the 2000s, historians seemingly made a renewed attempt to discredit the idea that the Reichstag fire was a false flag attack perpetrated by the Nazis. The timing of this effort was certainly curious, coming as it did after the September 11th attacks. One might almost get the impression that they were doing this in an attempt to eliminate any parallels between the Reichstag fire and the September 11th attacks. The historians may have been deliberately trying to frustrate the conspiracy theorists who compared the Enabling act to the Patriot act.

This comic lays it out quite clearly:
Image

john2
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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by john2 » 03 Sep 2019 17:41

The Reichstag fire is certainly political and leaders taking advantage of a crisis isn't new. All that can be proven is that Hitler took advantage of the fire. Are you suggesting there was a 9/11 conspiracy now?

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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by ljadw » 03 Sep 2019 18:05

Prof.MacCarthy wrote:
24 Aug 2019 10:12
It is today well established that Hitler exploited but did not order Reichstag fire. But it is not well known at all that communists indeed were thinking of their bloody revolution at that time. Their propaganda was very violent calling openly for taking up arms and for disarming SS and SA. Communists demented as they were softly speaking were thinking that Nazism is the last stage of capitalism, it will fall very soon, they should help with this also of course and after this communist revolution will happen.

Just before Reichstag fire communist newspaper Red sailor was calling: Workers to the baricades! Forward to victory! Fresh bullets in your guns! Draw the pins of the hand granades!

Marinus van der Lubbe who was a bit demented himself felt to such red propaganda of his superior thugs. Communists saw Reichstag as a simbol of bourgeois democracy.

So for conclusion German communists which were in fact just part of international communism led from Moscow helped Hitler to gain dictatorial powers in 1933 as Stalin helped Hitler to start WW2 in 1939 with their joint attack against Poland.

Source:

Hitler beyond Evil and Tyranny, page 282
I have seen much better sources than Hitler beyond Evil and Tyranny .

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wm
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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by wm » 16 Sep 2019 00:05

Nothing illustrates it ("twenty years of treason") better than the Roosevelt's Four Policemen proposal.

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Terry Duncan
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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by Terry Duncan » 16 Sep 2019 00:59

A post by Prof.MacCarthy that was off-topic and rambled into modern politics was removed by this moderator due to violation of the forum rules. Modern politics is off-limits for discussion, and people need to stick to the topic, preferably with evidence and not just opinions.

Terry Duncan

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Prof.MacCarthy
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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by Prof.MacCarthy » 16 Sep 2019 10:48

Wm you are a man of sharp mind I appreciate that! I opened a new topic about how American liberals under Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism.

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=244330

john2
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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by john2 » 04 Nov 2019 01:52

Sorry to bring this topic up again but I just finished reading "Burning the Reichstag" by Benjamin Hett. He believes the nazis set the fire. While I don't agree with everything he says he raised some interesting points:

- On the day of the fire two interesting coincidences took place. First the nazi leaders were all in Berlin. While this might not seem unusual there was an election going on and they all came back to Berlin on the very day of the fire! Now by Hett's own admission Hitler had come back for a cabinet meeting he had also been going back and forth between Berlin and various campaign stops. Also as Tobias said it was not necessary for Hitler to be in Berlin for the fire. Still interesting. What's even more interesting however is that Rudolf Diels - the head of the Prussian secret police put out an alert - that same day to look out for a communist uprising a few hours before the fire.

- The biggest hurdle to Van Der Lubbe doing the fire by himself is the compressed timeline - apparently it was all done in about a half hour.

- A hole in the nazis did it theory however is the reactions of Hitler, Goering and Goebbels. Goering said "What the hell is going on!" And Goebbels thought it was a prank. They also spent a lot of time in the Reichstag apparently speculating on the causes of the fire. At one point Hitler said something like "If this is the work of the communists..." Suggesting doubt. One theory is that the SA set the fire by themselves and the nazi leaders were really in the dark. Though it's hard to imagine them acting their own.

I'm not trying to rehash everything here I mainly just wanted to suggest Hett's book for someone who finds this thread and wants to do further research.

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