If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

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Futurist
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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by Futurist » 15 Sep 2020 19:31

wm wrote:
15 Sep 2020 19:09
Ideological motives are worse.
You could make a deal with a greedy person - save your life, but not with a fanatic.
It's clear which category Communists belonged to, but which category did Nazis belong to?

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by wm » 15 Sep 2020 19:38

Futurist wrote:
14 Sep 2020 00:51
Have you heard of the book Hitler's Pope, wm? It argues that had the Catholic Church taken a strong stand against the persecution of Jews since 1933, they could have had significant success in this regard--similar to what they actually had with euthanasia in real life.
The Catholic Church is the communion of Catholics. One of its goals is the protection of its members. Why should have the (relatively weak) German Catholics fought other people's battles?

As the good pastor said, they came first for the communists, the socialists, the trade unionists.
So why nobody argues that the Catholic Church should have taken a strong stand against the persecution of the communists? Or socialists?

Should have the German Catholics sacrificed themselves because the Jews weren't allowed to serve in the Wehrmacht, or weren't allowed to marry German women (Shirer wrote that the German women were the ugliest in Europe anyway)?

I could find numerous examples of nationalities, religions, political parties that, at the same time, were more severely persecuted than the Jews (till the end of 1938.)

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by Futurist » 15 Sep 2020 20:01

wm wrote:
15 Sep 2020 19:38
I could find numerous examples of nationalities, religions, political parties that, at the same time, were more severely persecuted than the Jews (till the end of 1938.)
Which ones?

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by wm » 15 Sep 2020 20:09

Futurist wrote:
15 Sep 2020 19:31
It's clear which category Communists belonged to, but which category did Nazis belong to?
They were similar, but in my opinion, Fascism and Nazism were more reasonable, more logical, and much less deadly (excluding the war, of course).
Communism was based on primitive, false science and really couldn't be reformed. Fascism and Nazism were much more elastic and more reformable.
But Hitler (or rather his Napoleonic ambitions) was the calamity that destroyed Nazism; basically, he should have stopped after Memel.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by Futurist » 15 Sep 2020 20:13

wm wrote:
15 Sep 2020 20:09
Futurist wrote:
15 Sep 2020 19:31
It's clear which category Communists belonged to, but which category did Nazis belong to?
They were similar, but in my opinion, Fascism and Nazism were more reasonable, more logical, and much less deadly (excluding the war, of course).
Communism was based on primitive, false science and really couldn't be reformed. Fascism and Nazism were much more elastic and more reformable.
But Hitler (or rather his Napoleonic ambitions) was the calamity that destroyed Nazism; basically, he should have stopped after Memel.
Yep, makes sense. Interestingly enough, Czechia was worth more than Danzig anyway, no?

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by wm » 15 Sep 2020 21:41

The Sudetenland was less developed than Germany, so he basically annexed poverty.
Futurist wrote:
15 Sep 2020 20:01
Which ones?
We might start with the blacks in the US. Latin America, Asia, Africa were imaginable sh.t holes where people like Calles, Trujillo murdered people by tens of thousands. And humans rights or even rights were simply "forget it."

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by Futurist » 15 Sep 2020 21:52

wm wrote:
15 Sep 2020 21:41
The Sudetenland was less developed than Germany, so he basically annexed poverty.
What's your data for this?
Futurist wrote:
15 Sep 2020 20:01
Which ones?
We might start with the blacks in the US. Latin America, Asia, Africa were imaginable sh.t holes where people like Calles, Trujillo murdered people by tens of thousands. And humans rights or even rights were simply "forget it."
Fair points--though FWIW, one should distinguish between blacks in the Northern US and blacks elsewhere in the US. Blacks in the Northern US generally didn't have to deal with things such as school segregation and anti-miscegenation laws in the early 20th century, I believe.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by wm » 15 Sep 2020 23:46

The per capita GDP of Czechoslovakia was 60 percent of Germany, and the Sudetenland was mostly mountains.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020 00:58

Slovakia and Subcarpathian Ruthenia lowered these figures, no? As for mountains, they were mountains full of industries, no?

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by SloveneLiberal » 16 Sep 2020 09:07

@Futurist Concerning German catholics i think they should fight for the rights of Jews much more than they did. It is interesting that in one way Vatican supported during the war the efforts of German opposition to remove Hitler, but did not talk openly about the persecution of Jews. It is still hard to reconcile this without Vatican documents and archives opened.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by wm » 16 Sep 2020 18:50

Vatican supported during the war the efforts of German opposition to remove Hitler
Really?

Futurist wrote:
16 Sep 2020 00:58
Slovakia and Subcarpathian Ruthenia lowered these figures, no? As for mountains, they were mountains full of industries, no?
They say the North part was well developed, but the place doesn't look like central Czechia at all, it's much less industrialized.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020 19:17

How much of the Sudetenland's population lived in its northern part?

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by wm » 16 Sep 2020 20:02

The northern part was the Sudetenland because they had the Sudetes there.
The rest (i.e., the "fake" Sudetenland) was like about 60 percent of all population I suppose.

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020 20:57

Interesting. Anyway, you're saying that even the northern part of the Sudetenland (as in the "real" Sudetenland) was much less industrialized than central Czechia was, correct?

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Re: If the Social Democrats Had Been a Little More Nationalistic

Post by SloveneLiberal » 17 Sep 2020 09:28

wm wrote:
16 Sep 2020 18:50
Vatican supported during the war the efforts of German opposition to remove Hitler
Really?

Futurist wrote:
16 Sep 2020 00:58
Slovakia and Subcarpathian Ruthenia lowered these figures, no? As for mountains, they were mountains full of industries, no?
They say the North part was well developed, but the place doesn't look like central Czechia at all, it's much less industrialized.
Yes. Vatican was involved in three conspiracies to owerthrow Hitler. For more:

https://www.amazon.com/Church-Spies-Sec ... 0465094112

However Vatican was also against allied policy of unconditional surrender against axis powers.

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