We are Voting for Hitler!

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ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 12 Jan 2021 16:23

Sid Guttridge wrote:
12 Jan 2021 14:33
Hi ljadw,

So now you are saying there was no "they were blessed by the pope"?

That you made it up?

I note that you still haven't put up the link you claimed said this.

I put it to you that you invented it and that is why you are refusing to put up the link.

And no, "No condemnation" does not "mean approval".

For instance, I don't recall you condemning, say, the so-called Holocaust, or Armenian genocide, or ISIS beheadings, or 9/11. Does this mean you approve? Of course not!

Article 18 of his 1905 Il Fermo Proposito: "....it was universally forbidden in Italy for Catholics to participate in the legislative power.". This is a direct and unambiguous statement of Vatican policy in that year. It may or may not have been what the then Pope preferred, but he wrote Il Fermo Proposito and that is the fact of the matter.

Cheers,

Sid.
Before Il Fermo Proposito,and in the time of Non Expedit, Catholics voted and were elected in national elections in Italy .
You will find NO condemnation from Pius X ,which means that he approved it .
And, your argument of the Holocaust is nonsense : I am not the pope .

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 12 Jan 2021 16:33

Sid Guttridge wrote:
12 Jan 2021 14:33


Article 18 of his 1905 Il Fermo Proposito: "....it was universally forbidden in Italy for Catholics to participate in the legislative power.". This is a direct and unambiguous statement of Vatican policy in that year. It may or may not have been what the then Pope preferred, but he wrote Il Fermo Proposito and that is the fact of the matter.

Cheers,

Sid.
NO, NO and NO .
You give a wrong citation from Article 18 : the pope did not say this .
He said :
''According to this decree, it was universally forbidden in Italy to Catholics to participate in the legislative power . ''
THIS decree was the decree of Leo XIII, NOT a decree of Pius X.
He also said : it WAS forbidden, he did not say : it IS forbidden .
And he said also that there are (NOW ) exceptions ( these exceptions existed already in 1904 ).
He did also say that it was not the Vatican who decided /would decide when there were/would be exceptions, but the bishops and Catholic layman .The fact is that already in 1904 the Non Expedit was thrown under the bus .
In 1904 Catholics voted and were elected with the consent of the pope .
Consent means blessings .
See my posts 152 and 153

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Jan 2021 18:58

Hi ljadw,

YES, YES, YES!

If you would care to quote Article 18 IN FULL, Pius X confirms Leo XIII's norm:

" These civil rights are of various kinds, even to the extent of directly participating in the political life of the country by representing the people in the legislative halls. Most serious reasons, however, dissuade Us, Venerable Brethren, from departing from that norm which Our Predecessor, Leo XIII, of blessed memory, decreed during his Pontificate. According to his decree it was universally forbidden in Italy for Catholics to participate in the legislative power. Other reasons equally grave, however, founded upon the supreme good of society which must be preserved at all costs demand that in particular cases a dispensation from the law be granted especially when you, Venerable Brethren, recognize the strict necessity of it for the good of souls and the interest of your churches, and you request such a dispensation."

He goes on in the first sentence of Article 19, in a doubly qualified manner. about the future: "This concession places a duty on all Catholics to prepare themselves prudently and seriously for political life in case they may be called to it."

You are building up quite a list of unanswered questions (with the Holocaust deleted so that you can now answer them):

So now you are saying there was no "they were blessed by the pope"?

I note that you still haven't put up the link you claimed said this.

I put it to you that you invented it and that is why you are refusing to put up the link.

And no, "No condemnation" does not "mean approval".

For instance, I don't recall you condemning, say, the Armenian genocide, or ISIS beheadings, or 9/11, or the fate of the Tasmanian aboriginals. Does this mean you approve?

You now say, "In 1904 Catholics voted and were elected with the consent of the pope." As this is before 1905 and Il Fermo Proposito, presumably you have some earlier hard evidence for this as official Vatican policy, which over rides Non Expedit?

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Yes, I agree, you are very much NOT the Pope!

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 13 Jan 2021 13:11

In 1904 Catholics elected and were elected,although the Non Expedit forbade this .
These Catholics were not banned, not excommunicated, not condemned by the pope .
This means that the pope agreed with what they did: they had his blessings .
Leo XIII said : no catholic participation in the elections .
After his death : there was a catholic participation on the elections ,and Pius X remained silent .
Conclusion : Pius X agreed silently with the participation .Which means that the catholic voters and elected candidates had the blessings of the pope .
You must not look at what the pope said, but at what he did .
The pope would not say : under the bus with Non Expedit, but he would throw Non Expedit under the bus .
If the pope did not condemn people who violated Non Expedit, he agreed with their violation .

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 13 Jan 2021 13:23

And the comparison with the Holocaust is wrong .
A good comparison is the following one
2021 the present pope is saying(what he will not do ) : every Catholic who denies/doubts/justifies the Holocaust is excommunicated .
2022 the pope dies ,a new is elected, and a Cardinal doubts the existence of the Holocaust, but the new pope does not excommunicate him .
Thus we can assume that the new pope agrees with what the Cardinal is saying .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Jan 2021 14:13

Hi ljadw,

To repeat, with a little added emphasis:

If you would care to quote Article 18 IN FULL, Pius X confirms Leo XIII's norm:

" These civil rights are of various kinds, even to the extent of directly participating in the political life of the country by representing the people in the legislative halls. Most serious reasons, however, dissuade Us, Venerable Brethren, from departing from that norm which Our Predecessor, Leo XIII, of blessed memory, decreed during his Pontificate. According to his decree it was universally forbidden in Italy for Catholics to participate in the legislative power. Other reasons equally grave, however, founded upon the supreme good of society which must be preserved at all costs demand that in particular cases a dispensation from the law be granted especially when you, Venerable Brethren, recognize the strict necessity of it for the good of souls and the interest of your churches, and you request such a dispensation."

He goes on in the first sentence of Article 19, in a doubly qualified manner. about the future: "This concession places a duty on all Catholics to prepare themselves prudently and seriously for political life in case they may be called to it."

You are building up quite a list of unanswered questions (with the Holocaust deleted so that you can now answer them):

So now you are saying there was no "they were blessed by the pope"?

I note that you still haven't put up the link you claimed said this.

I put it to you that you invented it and that is why you are refusing to put up the link.

And no, "No condemnation" does not "mean approval".

For instance, I don't recall you condemning, say, the Armenian genocide, or ISIS beheadings, or 9/11, or the fate of the Tasmanian aboriginals. Does this mean you approve?

Besides, the fact that in 1905 Pius X felt it necessary to publicly endorse Leo XIII's prohibition on Catholics voting in elections, stands as a rebuke to those who may have voted previously.

You now say, "In 1904 Catholics voted and were elected with the consent of the pope." As this is before 1905 and Il Fermo Proposito, presumably you have some earlier hard evidence for this as official Vatican policy, which over rides Non Expedit?

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 13 Jan 2021 18:58

I never said that I have this link . You invented this .

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 13 Jan 2021 19:03

In Article 18 Pius X did not say that he condemned the participation of Catholics in the elections .
For the obvious reason that a year before Catholics participated in these elections and that he remained silent .If he condemned in 1905 what he did not condemn in 1904, he would give of himself the image of a fool .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Jan 2021 19:09

Hi ljasw,

I rather suspected you had no such link. Thank you for your honesty.

You post, "In Article 18 Pius X did not say that he condemned the participation of Catholics in the elections."

True. But it can be taken as a rebuke to Italian Catholics who had jumped the gun by voting earlier.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
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Posts: 8151
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Jan 2021 19:09

Hi ljasw,

I rather suspected you had no such link. Thank you for your honesty.

You post, "In Article 18 Pius X did not say that he condemned the participation of Catholics in the elections."

True. But it can be taken as a rebuke to Italian Catholics who had jumped the gun by voting earlier.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Posts: 11119
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 13 Jan 2021 19:28

Two more sources who confirm what I am saying during this discussion .
1 Divided Friends : P 46 :
''Pius X relaxed the non expedit for the election of November 1904 .''
2 Church and State after the Dreyfus Affair.The Separation Issue in France P 122:
''In response to government overtures Pius X allowed Catholics to vote in the November elections wherever their support was needed to defeat left-wing candidates . This now familiar brand of Catholic strategy was given an open blessing in the following June when the encyclical Il Fermo Proposito authorised bishops to dispense Catholics from the non expedit wherever church interest recommended it .''
AN OPEN BLESSING.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Jan 2021 19:48

Hi ljadw,

I can only find one Divided Friends in the British Library catalogue, and that is periodical, so your source is untraceable. Tell us more or provide a link.

The Dreyfus Affair was in France. What has it got to do with voting in Italy?

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Posts: 11119
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 13 Jan 2021 22:01

Divided Friends is a book by William L.Portier published in December 2013 by The Catholic University of America Press .
If you google the title, you will find a lot of the book on the internet .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 Jan 2021 00:29

Hi ljadw,

Divided Friends seems to be about Catholicism in the USA. Are you sure the reference to November 1904 elections doesn't refer to the US elections of that same month and year?

There also seems to be some confusion about when the Italian Electoral Union was founded. i.e. "In 1909 Pius X promoted the creation of the Italian Catholic Electoral Union (UECI), a lay association with the task of guiding Italian Catholics involved in the political arena." Another source says 1906.

Another assumes it existed in 1904. However, the three member of Parliament were apparently not members of the (as yet unformed?) UECI, but were described as ‘representatives who were Catholic’, not ‘Catholic representatives’. Pius X knew of their intention to stand and agreed to look the other way.

Apparently Pius X did not want to abolish non expedit because he preferred the creation of an independent Catholic party not tied directly to the Vatican.

And to tidy up one matter so far left hanging, non expedit was officially abolished on 12 November 1919 by Pius X's successor.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: We are Voting for Hitler!

Post by ljadw » 14 Jan 2021 07:40

You forget that the Vatican is located in Italy and that Italian political parties are a collection of individuals who leave, come back ,create other parties, to use a today expression : they are as viruses : they do nothing else than mutate.
And the Vatican is not much different .

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