Worst equipment of WW2

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Hans1906
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Re: Worst equipment of WW2

Post by Hans1906 » 05 Jun 2021 17:04

Mark, the "Butterdose /Fettbüchse" is a common find on almost every german flea-market...

5,- Euro, thats it..! :wink:

Interesting for new "Bakelit" collectors..

Something like this, at least 250,- Euro!
"Art Deco" Stuff, oha...!!! :wink:


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Re: Worst equipment of WW2

Post by Cult Icon » 05 Jun 2021 17:58

Hans I guess that's what an army that lives on bread loaves needs then..

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Re: Worst equipment of WW2

Post by Linkagain » 06 Jun 2021 21:33

The Probulem with the Sherman was that it would have made a good Infantry Support weapon ...knocking out enemy soldiers; barbed wire; machine guns nests and bunkers {unless they had panerfurst} What it was not so succesful was as a tamk vs tank {in 1941 a Sherman with a .75mm engaged a japanese Light tank also armed with a .75mm--and lost].Until the Pershing tank with its 90mm arrive one definate way of knocking out German tanks was the tank destroyer battalions.. Mobile Heavy artillery on a tank chasis

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Re: Worst equipment of WW2

Post by LineDoggie » 07 Jun 2021 02:16

Linkagain wrote:
06 Jun 2021 21:33
The Probulem with the Sherman was that it would have made a good Infantry Support weapon ...knocking out enemy soldiers; barbed wire; machine guns nests and bunkers {unless they had panerfurst} What it was not so succesful was as a tamk vs tank {in 1941 a Sherman with a .75mm engaged a japanese Light tank also armed with a .75mm--and lost].Until the Pershing tank with its 90mm arrive one definate way of knocking out German tanks was the tank destroyer battalions.. Mobile Heavy artillery on a tank chasis
Sherman's weren't used in 1941

the M4A1 was first accepted in Feb 1942 and Japanese tanks in 41 didnt have 75mm guns so that claim is pure fantasy, they did use a 37mm, 47mm, 57mm but no 75mm until later in the war

the most numerous German tank faced by the allied armies was the Panzer IV which the M4 series most definitely could defeat in battle a fairly even match
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Re: Worst equipment of WW2

Post by gebhk » 07 Jun 2021 10:09

I don't think any Sherman or Japanese tank (or even infantryman!) was ever equipped with a .75 mm anything?

Is there some confusion with .75 cm rifle calibre weapons here? Albeit only approximately, since both sides used .77 cm (ish) ammo (and 6.5mm in the case of the Japanese).

I don't think any Japanese tank used in combat had a 75mm gun, let alone a light tank. What 75mm armed tanks were produced (from 1943, in response to the Sherman, I think) were retained for defence of the home islands AFAIK.

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Re: Worst equipment of WW2

Post by Cult Icon » 07 Jun 2021 16:20

Japanese rations in WW2 come across as being poor- reflective of dietary habits of asia and their own land productivity. Too many carbs (rice, barley, etc.), not enough fats and the others.

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Re: Worst equipment of WW2

Post by Linkagain » 07 Jun 2021 18:25

sorry it was my mistake it wasnt a Sherman it was a Stuart MS light tank [one tank knocked out and 4 others damaged and had to flee] vs Japanese Tanks .....Hardly a victory for US Forces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_Stuart

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Re: Worst equipment of WW2

Post by LineDoggie » 08 Jun 2021 03:01

Linkagain wrote:
07 Jun 2021 18:25
sorry it was my mistake it wasnt a Sherman it was a Stuart MS light tank [one tank knocked out and 4 others damaged and had to flee] vs Japanese Tanks .....Hardly a victory for US Forces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_Stuart
a platoon of 5x M3 tanks on it's own versus a IJA Tank Regiment with infantry support from 3rd Bn 20th infantry regiment, it would be stunning if they achieved anything like a victory under those circumstances

At Rosario, Ben’s detachment was informed that the 26th Cavalry Philippine Scouts was engaged with advanced Japanese patrols. At ten or ten-thirty in the morning, Ben was given warning orders from Captain Hanes to attack the Japanese. Ben met with General Weaver, who wanted him to attack the Japanese at Agoo, 12 kilometers to the north and west of Damaris on the coastal road. They were to proceed ten kilometers further north to the barrio of Aringay and destroy the enemy forces there. It was believed that the Japanese had not been able to bring in their artillery and tanks.

At about eleven in the morning, Ben’s tanks left Rosario and were attacked by Japanese planes. Bombs dropped by the planes exploded alongside Ben’s tank. Since they were fragmentation bombs, they did no damage. At Damortis, his tanks turned to the north and proceeded toward Agoo. Just north of Damortis, a scout car of the 26th Cavalry was parked. An American officer informed Ben that the Japanese were a half-mile ahead. The tanks proceeded north at a speed of fifteen miles an hour. At this time, Ben tried a trial shot with the 37mm cannon. This resulted in the cannon locking in recoil evidently locked out of battery. The gun would stay jammed throughout the coming engagement.

The Japanese infantry had deployed off the road and hit the dirt very fast. Pvt. Louis Zelis, Ben’s tank driver, began to weave the tank so that the stationary machine guns could fire upon the ditches more effectively. Cpl. John Cahill‘s bow gun kept jamming, but he still went through several 100 round belts of ammunition. Pvt. Steve Gados did a good job of keeping Pvt. Zelis’s guns loaded resulting in him going through 1000 rounds of ammunition. Ben was manning the coaxially mounted machine gun in the turret. After a while, because of problems, Ben had to pull the bolt back by hand before each shot.

About two miles south of Agoo, Ben’s tank was hit by a shell on the left side of the hull. The hit knocked the door loose in front of his driver’s, Pvt. Louis Zelis, position. Within seconds, a second direct hit tore the door away and left it dangling over the front slope plate of the hull. Ben signaled Pvt. Zelis to pull off the road to the right to take them out of the line of fire. Ben did this to give his crew the chance to put the door back in place before continuing the attack.

While the tank was stopped, a Japanese medium tank charged down on Ben’s crew from concealment. The Japanese tank struck Ben’s tank full in the left front at the driving sprocket. Pvt. Zelis backed onto the road again and tried to go forward. Since the left driving sprocket was sprung out of line, it was jammed in the track. The motive power of the right track pulled Ben’s tank off the road to the left. More shells struck the tank on the right side of the hull and in the right rear. One shell pierced the armor and entered the battery case causing the engines to stop. The radio and forward guns went dead, and the engine caught fire resulting in smoke entering the fighting compartment. Ben yelled “Gas!” to his men who put on their gas masks. Pvt. Zelis climbed out of his seat and turned on the fire extinguishers. Within a few minutes, the heat had become unbearable but the fire was out.

Through the smoke, Ben could see the remaining four tanks of his platoon withdrawing to the south. He had hoped that Sgt. Al Edwards could have broken through the Japanese guns on the road and the second platoon would overrun the Japanese landing area at Agoo. After about fifteen minutes, the Japanese ceased firing and four Japanese light tanks approached Ben’s tank. His tank was 50 to 75 yards off the road in a dry, hard rice field. To prevent the Japanese from firing into the damaged right front of his tank, Ben climbed out of his tank and surrendered his crew.
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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Re: Worst equipment of WW2

Post by Richard Anderson » 08 Jun 2021 03:10

Linkagain wrote:
07 Jun 2021 18:25
sorry it was my mistake it wasnt a Sherman it was a Stuart MS light tank [one tank knocked out and 4 others damaged and had to flee] vs Japanese Tanks .....Hardly a victory for US Forces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_Stuart
Zero context leads to zero understanding. The 192d, like the 194th earlier, was issued its Light Tanks M3 on departing San Francisco on 27 October 1941. They landed in Manila on 20 November 1941 and settled into Fort Stotsenburg over the next few days. Training with the new tank began around 25 November, but was limited by gasoline restrictions and lack of ammunition for practice. So when Lieutenant Morin's platoon of Company B, 192d Tank Battalion went into action on 22 December, they had all of less than a month of experience with the new tank.

Even better, Morin's platoon was literally at the limit of its endurance...the company was dispatched towards Lingayen Gulf ran out of gas at Rosario, because of a mix-up in orders, so the tanks of the rest of the company were drained to enable Morin's five tanks to continue the advance. With zero intelligence on what was ahead they then ran into the Japanese road block near Agoo, comprised of three Type 95 Tanks of the 1st Platoon, 2d Company, 4th Tank Regiment and elements of the 9th Company, 47th Infantry Regiment. The Japanese opened fire first, hitting Morin's tank apparently without effect. Morin's first round at the Japanese tank either missed or glanced off its target and resulted in a problem that plagued all the early production M3...when the gun recoiled the gunshield shifted slightly, binding on the gun tube and preventing it from returning to battery, making it useless as a weapon. Then, when he tried to move off road, probably to find shelter where they could clear the stoppage and also open the line of fire of his other tanks, his tank was hit and burned, forcing the crew to evacuate (they were captured). The other four tanks of the platoon opened fire, but all were quickly hit by fire from the Japanese. The Platoon Sergeant's tank was hit on the front, which penetrated and killed the assistant driver and apparently wounded others in the crew, so it too withdrew, and one other tank was immobilized. All apparently had problems returning their 37mm to battery and the few shots they were able to get off that hit were seen to ricochet off the Japanese tanks (probably due to poor manufacturing quality in the early 37mm M51 APC Shot). With three of five tanks knocked out or forced to withdraw they were still able to tow away the disabled tank. The remaining four tanks were lost in the next few days as the company had near zero ability to conduct repairs in the field...and the collapse of the American-Filipino defenses forced them to abandon the damaged tanks (and later most of the rest of the company when they encountered unbridged and unfordable rivers - more tanks were lost in the retreat because of ignorance of local trafficability conditions than to enemy action).

So three light tanks armed with 37mm guns ambushed five light tanks armed with 37mm guns and won, which is about what should be expected, especially when the side with numerical superiority was unfamiliar with its own weapons system and unaware of the major manufacturing flaw in the gunshield of its tank.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: Worst equipment of WW2

Post by Richard Anderson » 08 Jun 2021 03:15

LineDoggie wrote:
08 Jun 2021 03:01
At Rosario, Ben’s detachment was informed that the 26th Cavalry Philippine Scouts was engaged with advanced Japanese patrols. At ten or ten-thirty in the morning, Ben was given warning orders from Captain Hanes to attack the Japanese. Ben met with General Weaver, who wanted him to attack the Japanese at Agoo, 12 kilometers to the north and west of Damaris on the coastal road. They were to proceed ten kilometers further north to the barrio of Aringay and destroy the enemy forces there. It was believed that the Japanese had not been able to bring in their artillery and tanks.

At about eleven in the morning, Ben’s tanks left Rosario and were attacked by Japanese planes. Bombs dropped by the planes exploded alongside Ben’s tank. Since they were fragmentation bombs, they did no damage. At Damortis, his tanks turned to the north and proceeded toward Agoo. Just north of Damortis, a scout car of the 26th Cavalry was parked. An American officer informed Ben that the Japanese were a half-mile ahead. The tanks proceeded north at a speed of fifteen miles an hour. At this time, Ben tried a trial shot with the 37mm cannon. This resulted in the cannon locking in recoil evidently locked out of battery. The gun would stay jammed throughout the coming engagement.

The Japanese infantry had deployed off the road and hit the dirt very fast. Pvt. Louis Zelis, Ben’s tank driver, began to weave the tank so that the stationary machine guns could fire upon the ditches more effectively. Cpl. John Cahill‘s bow gun kept jamming, but he still went through several 100 round belts of ammunition. Pvt. Steve Gados did a good job of keeping Pvt. Zelis’s guns loaded resulting in him going through 1000 rounds of ammunition. Ben was manning the coaxially mounted machine gun in the turret. After a while, because of problems, Ben had to pull the bolt back by hand before each shot.

About two miles south of Agoo, Ben’s tank was hit by a shell on the left side of the hull. The hit knocked the door loose in front of his driver’s, Pvt. Louis Zelis, position. Within seconds, a second direct hit tore the door away and left it dangling over the front slope plate of the hull. Ben signaled Pvt. Zelis to pull off the road to the right to take them out of the line of fire. Ben did this to give his crew the chance to put the door back in place before continuing the attack.

While the tank was stopped, a Japanese medium tank charged down on Ben’s crew from concealment. The Japanese tank struck Ben’s tank full in the left front at the driving sprocket. Pvt. Zelis backed onto the road again and tried to go forward. Since the left driving sprocket was sprung out of line, it was jammed in the track. The motive power of the right track pulled Ben’s tank off the road to the left. More shells struck the tank on the right side of the hull and in the right rear. One shell pierced the armor and entered the battery case causing the engines to stop. The radio and forward guns went dead, and the engine caught fire resulting in smoke entering the fighting compartment. Ben yelled “Gas!” to his men who put on their gas masks. Pvt. Zelis climbed out of his seat and turned on the fire extinguishers. Within a few minutes, the heat had become unbearable but the fire was out.

Through the smoke, Ben could see the remaining four tanks of his platoon withdrawing to the south. He had hoped that Sgt. Al Edwards could have broken through the Japanese guns on the road and the second platoon would overrun the Japanese landing area at Agoo. After about fifteen minutes, the Japanese ceased firing and four Japanese light tanks approached Ben’s tank. His tank was 50 to 75 yards off the road in a dry, hard rice field. To prevent the Japanese from firing into the damaged right front of his tank, Ben climbed out of his tank and surrendered his crew.
Interesting. In the accounts I've seen it is implied that Morin's 37mm went out of battery at its first shot in the ambush rather than earlier. The Japanese accounts also place only three Type 95 tanks in the engagement and the single company from the 47th Infantry. Curiously, the Japanese account does not place any of their infantry ahead on the road either.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: Worst equipment of WW2

Post by ROLAND1369 » 09 Jun 2021 15:06

Many of these weapon problems could have identified and most likely solved except for the total incompetence of MacArthur's Logistics staff. Pre-war they refused to allocate firing ranges or gasoline for the training of the tank Bns due to a complete failure to convert from a peace time to wartime frame of mind and priorities. A failure not unknown to Regular Armies but criminal in this case. The equipment of the Provisional Tank Bn was relatively new to the 2 National Guard Units as they had previously been trained on and operated the M2 tank which were armed with 50 and 30 cal MG, no 37 MM main gun. While the change over from M2 to M3 light tank was evolutionary rather than revolutionary as regards to automotive components, both engine and suspension had some significant differences. Note the differences between the trailing idler on the M2 and M3 suspension. As regards the turret it was a drastic change for the crews from both crew training, operation and maintenance. the move to a 37 mm main gun and coax MG from a two man turret armed with free mounted guns.

The gist of this is that the M 3 light tank was perfectly adequate for tank combat at the time and proved more than a match for the Japanese armor in the Philippines. The proof of this is that of the 3 Japanese tanks in the assault on Corregidor 2 were M 3s and one had to be used to tow the one Japanese Chi Hai Medium tank off the beach. Thus i feel that the M 3 tank was not one of the worst weapons of WW II. Their failures were more a failure of poor staff leadership and poorer tactical use in the Phillipines campaign,

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Re: Worst equipment of WW2

Post by LineDoggie » 09 Jun 2021 21:43

randwick wrote:
18 May 2014 23:43
.
Worst equipment of WW2
a dishonorable mention for the Nbr 4 spike bayonet ,
last used at El Alamein for no good purpose , it was useless in its first duty as a can opener
the Soviet bayonet was also no good , it made the Moisin nagan top heavy ,
the shock infantry used sharpened spade as battle axes instead
the Japanese made much of bayonet charge , that was a medieval delusion
probably got more imperial soldiers killed than anything
by the time an assault is within hand to hand range , bayonets are not very useful
Kiwis on Crete used them (SMLE Bayonets) to good effect on the Fallschirmjager
Louis Millet certainly made them useful
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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Re: Worst equipment of WW2

Post by sailorsam » 11 Jun 2021 18:06

Cult Icon wrote:
07 Jun 2021 16:20
Japanese rations in WW2 come across as being poor- reflective of dietary habits of asia and their own land productivity. Too many carbs (rice, barley, etc.), not enough fats and the others.
the Japanese military was unhappy with their underfed, undersized recruits, and promoted more and better food (especially meats) in the Japanese diet. Peacetime rations were generally pretty good.

wartime campaign chow proved to be a disaster. the IJA did not put much emphasis on support trains and many troops went into battle with a bag of rice and little else. Command encouraged making use of captured ('Churchill') rations, which worked well early, especially in Malaysia. The allies caught on and started removing or destroying foodstuffs as they moved. later in the war of course food was very scarce.
bypassed units were often forced to fish and grow gardens.

(I recommend Lizzie Collingham's 'A Taste of War' book for anyone interested in any aspect of WWII and food.)

many Japanese troops went hungry, especially later in the war. I think Japan did the worst job of feeding its military, followed by the USSR.
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Re: Worst equipment of WW2

Post by Cult Icon » 12 Jun 2021 14:19

The items I see, composing portable Japanese rations are low-fat, like the ordinary things the Japanese eat on a daily basis. Polished rice is dominant in their diet. Polished rice has no nutritional value except for carbs.

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Re: Worst equipment of WW2

Post by Cult Icon » 13 Jun 2021 12:54

sailorsam wrote:
11 Jun 2021 18:06
wartime campaign chow proved to be a disaster. the IJA did not put much emphasis on support trains and many troops went into battle with a bag of rice and little else.

(I recommend Lizzie Collingham's 'A Taste of War' book for anyone interested in any aspect of WWII and food.)

many Japanese troops went hungry, especially later in the war. I think Japan did the worst job of feeding its military, followed by the USSR.
In taking a look at the book I see it has a section on the Japanese and the Chinese.

I have heard that Chinese communists also carried nothing but rice or a certain grain powder. When water is added, the grain powder turns into gooey brown substance, thicker than oatmeal. Decades later, the Viet minh also fed itself with the rice-backpack. These are also contenders for bad food!

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