Nazis and redheads

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1ngram
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Post by 1ngram » 30 May 2006 12:00

Pape in, I think, "Arm me Audacity" recalls being asked by Polish partisans if he was jewish - because he had red hair. He explained that many people of celtic origin in Britain had red hair. It seems that to have red hair in Poland meant you were likely to be jewish.

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Eva
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Post by Eva » 31 May 2006 23:15

I personally know a Jewish Hungarian woman who spent time in Auschwitz whose hair was as red as mine before she went gray. Her daughter and Grand daughters both have dark red hair. I wonder if any inclination that the NS regime had a bias against redheads had to do with the auburn haired Eastern Europeans, some of whom were Jewish, and all of whom were in the way of Lebensraum...?

-E

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Post by Flinker » 01 Jun 2006 00:10

Interesting. And, once again another survivor. I wonder if anyone's ever done a count on them ... and they are so long-lived. I remember several times reading that All of the Hungarian Jews were exterminated as soon as they arrived at Auschwitz. Perhaps more study needs to be done.

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Eva
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Post by Eva » 01 Jun 2006 01:41

The woman I know was a teenager when she was first sent to a camp and I forget where it was she spent most of the war, but I want to say Ravensbruk...? Maybe it was Theresianstadt, I got it all from her grand daughter, she never talks about it- anyway, she wasn't anyplace like a 'death camp' until late in the game. She worked in camps for most of the war and only went to Auschwitz at the very bitter end and was liberated from there pretty soon after going.

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Post by Flinker » 01 Jun 2006 04:39

I suppose there's an expert around who can inform us as to the most likely direction of camp-to-camp migration, but it seems to me that Auschwitz toward the end of the war would not have been a destination, say if one were in Ravensbrueck. Ravensbrueck is a mere 50 miles north of Berlin and rail travel to Poland must have been difficult given the Allied bombings taking place. Camp-to-camp migration might in itself give some clue as to the motivation of those in charge of camps, i.e., to bring in a supply of workers for the work being done. Auschwitz had been mostly evacuated by Jan/Feb of 1945 and before that had suffered its second great typhus outbreak. The camp, insofar as it was a working machine, had been in a defunct state for all of its operations for several months. Buna S and Buna N synthetic rubber elements were made there originally -- the main purpose of building the camp in the first place -- and those operations had been in disarray for many months. In Eli Wiesel's tome, he reports that he was evacuated by the Germans to the west, this, even though it involved his rescue as a patient from the Auschwitz hospital.

In my limited information about the camp-to-camp migrations that one so often hears about, I do have one item to quote from Alan Adelson and Robert Lapid's book, Lodz Ghetto, which comes from the diary of one of the souls locked up in the Lodz encampment:

Last Friday a notice was posted for the voluntary registration of males, 18 to 45, and females 20 to 30, for work in Germany. On Saturday, all those who had previously registered were notified to report immediately. A few thousand have already left. I think they're the lucky ones, for they get a chance to survive the war, which we in the ghetto do not have. All the letters sent by people shipped out for work assure us that they have plenty of food: "We can eat, eat, and eat some more ..." (Pg 139)


This is a definite example of westerly migration and it also runs counter to the information about Germany clearing out all of the Jews; however, the diary is dated April 16, 1941, which is a bit early-on in the scheme of things.

Your friend must have come backdoor fashion into Auschwitz and not with the great bulk of Hungarian arrivals (300,000 is what Shirer reports) who were supposedly wiped out completely. But, it would still be an unusual path for her to have taken, i.e. from west to east during the latter part of the war.

It would be enlightening if one could pin her down as to the facts. It is curious that one would not speak of such an experience after so many years have transpired. I assume that most such people receive payments from Germany and additional work reparations, and they must beforehand give a verifiable account of their victimization. I wonder if such documents are available in the public realm?

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Post by Flinker » 01 Jun 2006 05:28

Denim asks:

hasnt being redhaired something to do about a lack of pigment in the skin? a phenomenon that is found in a certain precent of the population of all white skinned.


I think it does not mean the person is without pigmentation. To the contrary, they're probably loaded with it. While I'm certainly not a medical doctor, I know a bit about color and what makes it up. Black, for instance, any artist can tell you is the absence of all color; while white contains ALL colors. Let us surmise that a person has no pigmentation whatsoever. What would they look like? Perhaps they would be translucent and one could see their blood flowing through veins and capillaries ... your guess is as good as mine (probably better).

Perhaps Denim is thinking about melanin, which is a dark substance (therefore containing no color), which appears in greater or lesser degree in the pigmentation of humans. How much melanin one has determines the darkness of ones skin. If one is without melanin totally, one has albinism. Those with Albinism are loaded with color, since they are all white, and the whiteness comes from white pigmentation into which melanin hasn't penetrated. They also have little protection from UV rays, so it's good to have the right amount of melanin for the sun exposure one is likely to encounter. If not, clothes, possibly including hats and gloves are in order. It's an old circumstance that Northern Europeans have been successfully dealing with for a long time.

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Robb
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Post by Robb » 01 Jun 2006 05:44

I believe Scotland holds the record for the highest percentage of Redheads. Maybe someone has some Stats on the incidence of Reheads?

I would imagine that any Jewish redheads would be as a result of intermarriage with Caucasian populations, as Jewish people typically are dark haired, very similar to other Middle Eastern populations.

Regards Robb

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Post by Flinker » 01 Jun 2006 06:26

Yes, I think there may have been a bit of mixing going on in the case of "European" Jews. And certainly, Jews are not Europeans, they are Asians, or Near Easterners, or "Middle" Easterners by definition. This definition serves also to give them a "blood" justification for being in Israel, and I'm certain they uphold it.

There has been a long-standing controversy regarding the origins of the Eastern, or Ashkenazim Jews. The Khanate of Khazar, composed of steppe/Turkic peoples, went "religion shopping" sometime around the Eighth Century and adopted the Jewish religion. They were not the same bloodline as the Jews originating in ancient , Biblical times, and Israel's detractors call attention to this "fact" as a reason for Ashkenazim to have no claim to the land of Israel. It's a sore subject and much has been made of it. I have read recently that some Jews opt to have their DNA tested in order to discover a link for themselves to the original Jews (Sephardhim?). It seems the "Levy" tribe connection is manifested very often by these tests and brings about great relief to those who are tested. The Levy tribe hails from Jerusalem and therefore many Ashkenazi Jews are able to claim the link. (There is an enormous number of articles regarding the Ashkenazim/Sephardhim subject to be found by googling).

Anyway, the occurence of red or blond hair is likely an indication of some mixing having taken place; however, some anthropologists claim the original Jewish bloodline was comprised of Hitite, Berber and Ionian. The Ionians were a blond, blue-eyed people who hailed from Europe originally. So there you have a case for fair-haired Jews emerging from original, "Sephardic" tribes via an occasional Ionian phenotype.

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 01 Jun 2006 07:50

A comment regarding post-war Israel and Palestine was removed. Let's keep this on topic (which you all generally have, apart from that.)

cheers

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Post by Flinker » 01 Jun 2006 09:01

I believe that removed posted item was about "Lebensraum" and its ironic outcome. Lebensraum is definitely a WWII topic, a KEY WWII topic, which "Eva" opened discussion on. Her comment remains., yet mine gets bounced. I'm wondering why this was done.

Is there someone to whom I can appeal this action? Otherwise, I feel rather discouraged from participating further in discussions.

I can only think that this sort of action is the reason why so many of the discussion topics have become moribund.

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 01 Jun 2006 09:31

Flinker -

Lebensraum as a factor in nazi policy is a legitimate point of discussion in this context, trying to apply that concept to Israel and Palestine after the war is not, that being an unrelated subject and essentially just a personal opinion on your part.

If you want to appeal the decision, you can PM one of the forum administrators.

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 07 Jun 2006 01:28

It is quite untrue that non-Jews with red hair were subject to persecution in National Socialist Germany or in any of the countries under German domination purely because of their hair colour.

The only segment of the population that was subjected to repressive measures purely because of pigmentation consisted of individuals with above-normal concentrations of melanin in the skin surrounding the anal orifice. Such excessive pigmentation was considered to be an indicator of low "racial value", and a special unit of the SS Race and Settlement Office, the Anal Assessment Unit, was set up to track down and isolate persons with this particular physical charactersitic.

Those of you familiar with developments in the beauty industry may have become of the recent fad for a process known as anal bleaching, which has arrived hot on the heels of the Brazilian wax craze. Apparently that technique was developed by doctors in National Socialist Germany to help persons desperate to escape the searching gaze of the Anal Assessment Unit.

The above statements have the same level of historical accuracy as anything else that has been posted on this thread.

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Post by lord_salisbury » 07 Jun 2006 18:46

To be honest I wouldn't be suprised if the Nazis did persecute red heads. We tend to discriminate against them in my society (England) too.

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 09 Jun 2006 08:30

This thread seems to have run its course. Two off-topic posts were removed.

cheers

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