Nazi views on people with Learning Disabiltes

[aipaul]

Hello,
I've been a lurker on this forum and decided to join yesterday after reading this thread. A few years ago I was diagnosed with a condition called Asperger's Syndrome which is actually a form of autism. One of the characteristics of people with this syndrome is that they can develop unusual and obsessive interests in very specific and sometimes peculiar subjects. I suspect many of you also may have this but I am in no way trying to put any of you down because of it. I mean that's really why I'm here. I share your interests even if others may find them peculiar.

Anyway back to the topic. AS was named after Hans Asperger. He was a doctor from Vienna who did most of his pioneering work in the 30s and 40s at the height of the Third Reich. I just find that fascinating. I wonder if he was a collegue of the Dr. Gross.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Asperger

I should also add that I and many others suspect that Heinrich Himmler also had AS. He had a very montone voice and spoke in a pedantic manner which are both symptoms of AS. Another suspected apie from that period is the late emporer of Japan, Hirohito.

[konig15]

Welcome to the board my friend!
This Aspberger Syndrome, sounds a lot like me, but I've been to a couple of doctors and they all say I'm fine except the manic depression, which makes me crazier than a shit fight in monkey house. I'd offer my condolances, but some people don't like that. Not me though, this bipolar crap is ruining my life, but I hope things are going better for you.

I suspect that the Nazis would let the Aspber children live, only because the disease wasn't documented at the time. Had they won WWII, thing would be much different...

[aipaul]

I suspect that the Nazis would let the Aspber children live, only because the disease wasn't documented at the time. Had they won WWII, thing would be much different...

Born in Vienna, Asperger published the first definition of Asperger's Syndrome in 1944. In four boys, he identified a pattern of behavior and abilities that he called "autistic psychopathy," meaning autism (self) and psychopathy (personality disease). The pattern included "a lack of empathy, little ability to form friendships, one-sided conversation, intense absorption in a special interest, and clumsy movements." Asperger called children with AS "little professors" because of their ability to talk about their favourite subject in great detail.

Sounds quite well documented but this was in 1944, towards the end of the Third Reich.

[Nautilus]

I have a question slightly off topic, but it's not too far off concerning the matter

and sorry if this has been asked before

What did the Third German Empire think of those born with physical disibilites but perfectly fine minds?

The T-4 action was aimed to get rid of those people with mental handicaps which were obviously and totally incurable, reason for which each case was subject to individual judgment by 3 qualified doctors, whose unanimous vote was needed. People with severe physical handicaps but psychologically normal could always be somehow "cured" or returned to a quasi-normal life by use of prosthetics.

This, of course, in theory.

What Hitler himself hardly understood and state bureaucratic systems always ignore is thhe fact that doctors, like judges, prosecutors, military men or administrators, are still human, and subject themselves to prejudice, obsessions and faulty judgment. If the commission of doctors who took the decision over a hypothetical X's life was lenient he/she could escape execution, on the other side another hypotetical Y could lose his/her life only because the same doctors disliked him/her. Allowing someone to play God always leads to this kind of risk.

From the point of view of an 1940s man (there are some of them alive, you can interview them to see what kind of personality our grandparents had ) people like Dr. Hans Asperger did the right thing by studying and trying to help and cure kids (and adults) who were apparently "intelligent and learned but mad". On the other side, the placement on the black list of runaway kids, vagrants, aggresive ones, petty thieves etc, although it may seem an utter abnormality for a psychiatrist, it would still be approved by ordinary people, the kind who nowadays appear on TV surveys and claim "our streets should be cleaned of human scum" - they fear aggresiveness, crime, antisocial behavior, and would do anything to get rid of them. They fear them even more in children than in adults, because the child in an adult's subconscious thought "lacks emotional maturity", "does not know dangers or fear them" and therefore is "uncontrollable and unreliable". Many of those who were mature in 1940 had spent their early years in the Victorian age, in an absurdly restrictive and apparently stable social environment, and feared everything "out of normal ways". For this kind of people, accusing someone "abnormal" of madness and sending him/her to death was a golden opportunity; the indiscriminate use of lobotomy in English-speaking countries in the same 1940s had the same reasons behind it.

For this reason, the T-4 action was not just a horrendous crime, but also a lethal danger for the Third Reich itself, had it been left to grow. A subterranean network of self-styled mini-Gods could in a near future simply liquidate anyone they saw even a bit "out of way", therefore imposing via unspoken terror a restrictive lifestyle, which would halt scientific, technical and social progress altogether, for as long as the Reich was to exist. The Soviet terror over dissidents would be nothing by comparison.

We don't know what Hitler really thought, and if he or any subordinate state official in charge ever took time to reflect on this. Most probably they didn't. The fact they feared public reaction enough to stop upon intervention of German bishops was a fortunate event, maybe one of the most fortunate in the short but bloody history of the Third Reich.

~Nautilus

[Nautilus]

As for the Asperger's Syndrome or "high-functioning autism", beside the official diagnosis, there are a few common features exhibited by patients and recorded by observation:

- uncoordinated motor movements, sometimes rigid and unnatural;
- very poor social skills, hard to sustain a normal conversation;
- avoidance of direct contact with other people, communication via an interface (written mail, telephone, radio, television, film, in the latest years Internet);
- lack of understanding for other people, lack of empathy;
- the patient has a narrow range of interests(sometimes weird) and cares only for the things that directly affect them; only in things related his "obsession" is he/she energetic and ready to accomplish whatever it takes;
- the patient has very good memory, even for obscure technical details, as long as it's for the things he/she cares for;
- the patient usually speaks most of the time on the subject of his interest, and drives most conversation in that direction.

Now I wonder what political leader in WWII did exhibit most of the traits described above...

~Nautilus

[cartoss]

As a parent with sons who are higher functioning autisic/Aspbergers. I can only speak from personal experience and transcribing my experiences into a historical context. As has been previously stated the first diagnosis wasn't until 1944, in Vienna. Please bear in mind the attitude within the Third Reich to pychiatry - "a Jewish Science".

Remember that early post war diagnosis was these sufferers had undergone sever emontional trauma, early work likened their behaviour to symptoms displayed by child survivors of concentration camps.

At the higher end of the autistic spectrum until fairly recently the suferers were not diagnosed and were left to get on with life, so I would suspect that many boys (most, but not all AS are male) would have got on as best as they could.

With the fixations that are part of the illness and the lack of empathy, I would suspect that a fair percentage did quite well in the disciplined society of Germany at the time. I suspect that Himmler could have been a sufferer too.

However you can apply the diagnosis to just about anyone to a greater or lesser degree.

[aipaul]

I see someone else is in agreement that Himmler had AS but I wouldn't say he suffered from it. He made others suffer for his AS. I don't suffer from my AS but I do suffer from the discrimination it brings.

[Annelie]

As for the Asperger's Syndrome or "high-functioning autism", beside the official diagnosis, there are a few common features exhibited by patients and recorded by observation:

- uncoordinated motor movements, sometimes rigid and unnatural;
- very poor social skills, hard to sustain a normal conversation;
- avoidance of direct contact with other people, communication via an interface (written mail, telephone, radio, television, film, in the latest years Internet);
- lack of understanding for other people, lack of empathy;
- the patient has a narrow range of interests(sometimes weird) and cares only for the things that directly affect them; only in things related his "obsession" is he/she energetic and ready to accomplish whatever it takes;
- the patient has very good memory, even for obscure technical details, as long as it's for the things he/she cares for;
- the patient usually speaks most of the time on the subject of his interest, and drives most conversation in that direction.

aipaul

I see someone else is in agreement that Himmler had AS but I wouldn't say he suffered from it.

these symptoms also could describe Hitler?

[aipaul]

aipaul

I see someone else is in agreement that Himmler had AS but I wouldn't say he suffered from it.

these symptoms also could describe Hitler?

I've had a similiar discusson on an AS forum. Most of us agreed AH did not have AS. He actually had good social skills and knew how to manipulate a crowd. Definitely not characteristic of AS.

[Nautilus]

Hitler was the person I've tried to suggest.

Although he had tremendous talent to captivate and manipulate people, this happened mostly when he was at far range from them - speaking from a balcony to a crowd, not an individual, speaking to other people via telephone or radio, being filmed by a talented filmmaker like Leni Riefenstahl etc

Some people who had approached Hitler and saw him at close range were unpleased and/or unnerved by the way he spoke (always drove a conversation which had begun normally to his own topics, usually disregarded the other speakers, revolved the discussion around one of his fixations) and the way he moved - rigid, somehow "robotic". One of them was Princess Martha Bibescu (1886-1973) who met Mussolini in the early 1930s and was impressed by his manners and speech and thought him "a very kind an charming man" and also saw Adolf Hitler at close range in the same timeframe but did not speak to him, while she shuddered at his "rigid", "mechanical like" appearance and public behavior.

The pictures drawn by Hitler in his youth also were thought to be photo-like, static and lifeless by art specialists.

Hitler's computer-like memory was famous during his life and his IQ has been quoted to be 140 (I've couldn't find if he took an IQ test during life or the figure was deduced from his way of judging and solving issues)

~Nautilus

[VanillaNuns]

I should also add that I and many others suspect that Heinrich Himmler also had AS. He had a very montone voice and spoke in a pedantic manner which are both symptoms of AS. Another suspected apie from that period is the late emporer of Japan, Hirohito.

Does anyone else here believe this? I don't know enough about Himmler to have an opinion.

I have read that Generaloberst Hans Jeschonnek suffered from severe depression and emotional instability which only worsened as the war progressed. Being isolated in the dreary surroundings of FHQ Wolfsschanze certainly wasn't a healthy atmosphere and this may well have led to his eventual suicide in 1943.

Marc Rikmenspoel writes here that Wilhelm Mohnke was hospitalised for "temporary insanity" so perhaps he had some mental health issues.

Mohnke was out of action for a while, and some believe he became addicted to morphine while in severe pain during his recovery. Sepp Dietrich was always a patron to Mohnke's career. Mohnke was an original member of the LAH from 1933, and had risen to command a company by the 1940 Western Campaign. During that campaign he replaced his wounded battalion commander, and held that command despite being junior for the post.

After recovering from the loss of his foot, Mohnke was named to form and command the newly activated Panzer Abteilung for the LAH. However, during February 1942 he got into a violent argument with SS-FHA chief Hans Jüttner, and was relieved from his command (Ralf Tiemann writes about this in his book on the history of the 7. SS-PR 1). Jüttner had Mohnke sent to a military hospital, essentially for treatment of "temporary insanity" yet a month later, Mohnke had a new command, that of the Feldersatz Bataillon for LAH. I can't confirm how he got the latter post, but my guess is that Dietrich made the arrangements for it.

Oskar Dirlewanger was someone very lucky not to have ended up in Dachau or worse. A truly dreadful individual whose conduct was conveniently overlooked.

A police report from the early 1920s describes him as a mentally unstable, violent fanatic and alcoholic, who had the habit of erupting into violence under the influence of drugs

Dirlewanger was then repeatedly convicted for illegal arms possession and embezzlement. In 1934 (under the new Nazi regime), he was convicted and sentenced to 2 years imprisonment for the rape of a 14-year-old girl from the League of German Girls (BDM), as well in addition to other less serious charges of dishonesty. Dirlewanger also lost his job, his doctorate and all military honours, and was expelled from the party. Soon after his release from the prison in Ludwigsburg, Dirlewanger was arrested again on similar charges for criminal recidivism. He was sent to a concentration camp at Welzheim.

Yet he was eventually "rehabilitated" by the state after his old friend Gottlob Berger personally intervened on his behalf. Rejoined the party, was reinstated to the SS and even had his doctorate restored.

Eventually reached the rank of SS-Oberführer and was highly decorated.

Yet obviously someone who today would be a convicted paedophile, registered sex offender and a habitual petty criminal with several clinically diagnosed personality disorders.

No doubt there are many others.

[Alexandra W]

I should also add that I and many others suspect that Heinrich Himmler also had AS. He had a very montone voice and spoke in a pedantic manner which are both symptoms of AS. Another suspected apie from that period is the late emporer of Japan, Hirohito.

Does anyone else here believe this? I don't know enough about Himmler to have an opinion.

I have read that Generaloberst Hans Jeschonnek suffered from severe depression and emotional instability which only worsened as the war progressed. Being isolated in the dreary surroundings of FHQ Wolfsschanze certainly wasn't a healthy atmosphere and this may well have led to his eventual suicide in 1943.

Marc Rikmenspoel writes here that Wilhelm Mohnke was hospitalised for "temporary insanity" so perhaps he had some mental health issues.

Mohnke was out of action for a while, and some believe he became addicted to morphine while in severe pain during his recovery. Sepp Dietrich was always a patron to Mohnke's career. Mohnke was an original member of the LAH from 1933, and had risen to command a company by the 1940 Western Campaign. During that campaign he replaced his wounded battalion commander, and held that command despite being junior for the post.

After recovering from the loss of his foot, Mohnke was named to form and command the newly activated Panzer Abteilung for the LAH. However, during February 1942 he got into a violent argument with SS-FHA chief Hans Jüttner, and was relieved from his command (Ralf Tiemann writes about this in his book on the history of the 7. SS-PR 1). Jüttner had Mohnke sent to a military hospital, essentially for treatment of "temporary insanity" yet a month later, Mohnke had a new command, that of the Feldersatz Bataillon for LAH. I can't confirm how he got the latter post, but my guess is that Dietrich made the arrangements for it.

Oskar Dirlewanger was someone very lucky not to have ended up in Dachau or worse. A truly dreadful individual whose conduct was conveniently overlooked.

A police report from the early 1920s describes him as a mentally unstable, violent fanatic and alcoholic, who had the habit of erupting into violence under the influence of drugs

Dirlewanger was then repeatedly convicted for illegal arms possession and embezzlement. In 1934 (under the new Nazi regime), he was convicted and sentenced to 2 years imprisonment for the rape of a 14-year-old girl from the League of German Girls (BDM), as well in addition to other less serious charges of dishonesty. Dirlewanger also lost his job, his doctorate and all military honours, and was expelled from the party. Soon after his release from the prison in Ludwigsburg, Dirlewanger was arrested again on similar charges for criminal recidivism. He was sent to a concentration camp at Welzheim.

Yet he was eventually "rehabilitated" by the state after his old friend Gottlob Berger personally intervened on his behalf. Rejoined the party, was reinstated to the SS and even had his doctorate restored.

Eventually reached the rank of SS-Oberführer and was highly decorated.

Yet obviously someone who today would be a convicted paedophile, registered sex offender and a habitual petty criminal with several clinically diagnosed personality disorders.

No doubt there are many others.

Suchenwirth has suggested that Jeschonnek might have bipolar disorder, as between his melancholy outbursts he did express overly optimistic views in several occasions, sometimes in a very dramatic way.

[Hans1906]

Good afternoon,

in the former "Heil- und Pflegeanstalt Wehnen", nowadays "Karl-Jaspers-Klinik Wehnen", a large number of so called
"disabled" patients were murdered there before 1945, many of them children.

Link: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Jasp ... nik_Wehnen

The place is just a few kilometers away from my former hometown in north germany, just "around the corner",
a very strange place to visit, and I know the area very well.

There are many links about Wehnen online, to much to mention.

Most of the victims there starved to death, were injected to die, or were left alone to die.
It is one of the places with a special "smell", even nowadays...
Being there, walking around there, is like walking on graves, this was my impression the last time, I had to be there.

Typical saying back then was "Ist in Wehnen", or "Ist dort zu Tode gekommen", hundreds of families from the Oldenburg area
and Ostfriesland did never see their handicapped relatives never again.

The people just went away, into nothing, thousands of them, murdered for being "unworthy", criminal, asozial,
nothing worth anymore...

Many families are still suffering for the unknown fate of their relatives, even nowadays, endless questions, never to be solved...

[Hans1906]

Good evening to the topic,

close related to the topic "Wehnen", links about the later "DP-Lager Wehnen" are important:

DP-Lager Wehnen https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DP-Lager_Wehnen

Lager Wehnen http://www.lager-wehnen.de

PDF file: "Ausländische ZwangsarbeiterInnen in Oldenburg während des Zweiten Weltkrieges
Eine Rekonstruktion der Lebensverhältnisse und Analyse von Erinnerungen deutscher und polnischer ZeitzeugInnen"

555 pages, download size 3.95 megabyte
Download link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... BoZTAEiAge