Die Saar ist deutsch!

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
|AXiN|
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Re: Die Saar ist deutsch!

Post by |AXiN| » 12 Oct 2010 05:18

Did all the political parties advocate the continued status quo, or just the left wing? While they came in 2nd and 3rd respectively at the last pre-totalitarian election, the mighty Wikipedia suggests that the only regions which didn't go to the NSDAP went with Zentrum, so I was wondering if the non-left-wing parties supported reunification or not.

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Hundi
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Re: Die Saar ist deutsch!

Post by Hundi » 12 Oct 2010 23:18

|AXiN| wrote:the mighty Wikipedia...
Wikipedia is not reliable at all!

Sorry not to stay on topic, but truly we must be careful with the information that the wikipedia shows.

one example:

Just compare the numbers of scuttle ships of the German Navy Fleet in scapa flow in 1919.... there are many many more.

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Adam Carr
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Re: Die Saar ist deutsch!

Post by Adam Carr » 13 Oct 2010 00:05

At the last elections to the Saargebeit's Landtag in 1932, the Zentrum polled 43%, the KPD 23%, the SPD 10% and the NSDAP 6%. It was one of the KPD's strongest areas. Basically the coal-miners voted KPD or SPD, while the middle-class and the rural population voted Zentrum. All three of these parties advocated a status quo vote in the plebiscite, which makes the 91% vote for anschluss all the more remarkable. It was a triumph for Goebbels in particular. It was a shock to the KPD and SPD, who were shown how weak their influence was even with their own voters in the face of the NSDAP's appeal to German racial solidarity.

|AXiN|
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Re: Die Saar ist deutsch!

Post by |AXiN| » 13 Oct 2010 00:16

Hundi: I am aware of the failings of Wikipedia - "mighty Wikipedia" was a joke.

Adam: Was it seen as a failure of the same scale within Zentrum as within the KPD and SPD? IIRC Zentrum votes were what got the NSDAP across the line in passing the Enabling Act, so they had a history of working with/being intimidated into working with the Nazis.

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Adam Carr
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Re: Die Saar ist deutsch!

Post by Adam Carr » 13 Oct 2010 00:38

The Church advocated a status quo vote both directly and through the Zentrum, so it was a big rebuff for them as well in a heavily Catholic area - a foretaste of what was to happen in Austria in 1938.

Yes you are right that it was the capitulation of the Zentrum that gave Hitler the Reichstag votes he needed to pass the Enabling Act. Mgr Ludwig Kaas, who was Zentrum chairman and close to Cardinal Pacelli in Rome, bears a heavy responsibility for this, capitulation, which former Chancellor Bruning opposed.

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Hundi
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Re: Die Saar ist deutsch!

Post by Hundi » 16 Oct 2010 01:47

|AXiN| wrote:Hundi: I am aware of the failings of Wikipedia - "mighty Wikipedia" was a joke.
oh! ok, my mistake I didn't get it that was a joke, I apologyze :D

/Hundi.

|AXiN|
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Re: Die Saar ist deutsch!

Post by |AXiN| » 16 Oct 2010 06:34

Sarcasm and the internet are always a troublesome combination, all the more so for non-english speakers.

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Re: Die Saar ist deutsch!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Oct 2010 13:59

There was a difference between the level of support for the Nazi Party at elections and support for individual issues put by the Nazi Party at plebiscites.

As far as I am aware, the Nazis never got enough electoral support in any German-populated territory (Germany, Austria, Danzig) in openly contested elections to change the consitution in their favour. (I think their highest electoral support was about 56% at Danzig, where a two-thirds majority was required to change the constitution). However, by banning other parties, as happened in Germany, Austria and Danzig, they were able to remove enough parliamentary opposition to achieve the necessary majorities to alter constitutions in their favour and install themselves unchallenged for ever.

Once in power, the Nazis never put their contrived constitutional legitimacy to an electorate anywhere. Instead they used referendums on specific subjects for which there was widespread support beyond the Nazi Party, in particular for anschluss in the Saarland, Austria and Sudetenland, all of which returned support above 90%. In the League of Nations managed plebiscite in the Saarland the result undoubtedly reflected public sentiment.

However, the dubious conduct of the Austrian and Sudetenland plebiscites places an unnecessary questionmark against the 98%+-in-favour results. (See the link above for an illustration of the distorted Austrian plebiscite paper and a description by Göring's brother of the irregular voting process).

The Saarland result of 91%-in-favour set the bar for later referenda exceptionally high and the Nazis therefore "massaged" results in Austria and the Sudetenland to show even higher approval levels. This was almost certainly unnecessary as majority popular sentiment very probably favoured Anschluss in both cases anyway.

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Adam Carr
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Re: Die Saar ist deutsch!

Post by Adam Carr » 19 Oct 2010 10:09

The Nazi government never altered the Weimar Constitution, which remained in place until the Allies dissolved the German state by the Declaration of Berlin of 5 June 1945. The President, with the consent of the Reichstag, suspended some parts of the Constitution, and the government of course routinely ignored its provisions once they were firmly in power.

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tigre
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Re: Die Saar ist deutsch!

Post by tigre » 26 Oct 2015 23:02

Hello to all :D; a little complement: The Plebiscite!
Source: The Third Reich - Documentary book on German Year 1935.
Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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tigre
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Re: Die Saar ist deutsch!

Post by tigre » 07 Nov 2015 21:51

Hello to all :D; a little more: the Plebiscite!
Source: The Third Reich - Documentary book on German Year 1935.
Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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tigre
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Re: Die Saar ist deutsch!

Post by tigre » 30 Aug 2019 04:05

Hello to all :D; a little more: Saargebiet 1935.
Source: https://www.booklooker.de/B%C3%BCcher/I ... jNvcP01ZZt
Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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