Paris Under the Nazis: Happy Days?

[ThomasG]

The photographs from the early 1940s show Paris as sunny, airy, bursting with color. Its inhabitants appear carefree, content and refreshingly unaware of their proclivity for looking très chic. It's all very much at odds with the prevailing image of the French capital suffering and smoldering under the yoke of its Nazi occupiers. Indeed, that very dissonance has made the current photo exhibit "Parisians Under the Occupation" one of the city's most controversial cultural events of late. Was life in Nazi-controlled Paris really as idyllic as these pictures suggest?
http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0 ... 69,00.html

[Richie B]

I think the answer can only be no.

You could contrast with a well known photo of a Frenchman in tears around about the same time.

Then add in food shortages, deportations of Jewish people to the death camps as well those people sent to Germany for forced labour.

France was by no means the worst treated country that the Germans occupied and I’m sure people who collaborated may have been very content.

I also remember my late father telling me of the gratitude of the French people shown to British troops following the 1944 landings.

The lady quoted in the Time article who said ...

"Almost everyone here lost family in the Shoah, and knows that wasn't how it was. In fact, I don't think anyone who lived in or knows people who lived in Paris during the Occupation thinks those photos show how it was." Still, she emphatically agrees with those who say that the curators should have been more explicit in laying out the darker context of death, deportation and repression: "That's the one thing people can never be reminded of too often." ... should know – she was there.

Richie

[ThomasG]

"Almost everyone here lost family in the Shoah, and knows that wasn't how it was. In fact, I don't think anyone who lived in or knows people who lived in Paris during the Occupation thinks those photos show how it was." Still, she emphatically agrees with those who say that the curators should have been more explicit in laying out the darker context of death, deportation and repression: "That's the one thing people can never be reminded of too often." ... should know – she was there.

The lady you quote resided in a Jewish neighborhood and tells how people there experienced the occupation. The Jews were of course treated harshly but the occupation was relatively humane towards the majority of Frenchmen.

[Richie B]

but the occupation was relatively humane towards the majority of Frenchmen.

Thomas

I don't disagree at all with this ... with a strong emphasis on the term "relatively"

Richie

[D.Laurent]

France is certainly the western country which has suffered the most from the occupation due to his lowest statut compared to other western countries (and "germanic" countries)
It is certain that you cannot compare the occupation of western with the occupation of eastern countries however it was far to be happy days with the restriction, repression, dictatorship and deportation for the jewish people.
Happy days was true only for collaborationnist, criminal however.

You failed to mention in your first topic that the series of pictures come from a propaganda series which make your topic biased.

[ThomasG]

You failed to mention in your first topic that the series of pictures come from a propaganda series which make your topic biased.

I just posted the beginning of the Time article as an excerpt.

[Georges JEROME]

thomas G refer to an exhibition of colour pics of occupation in Paris organised by the Mayor of Paris. contreversed because taken by the french photographer Zucca who had a command for Signal; Therefore the pics were never published as a whole.
The pics have a real historical interest because they show Paris under german rules but they are 100 % propaganda.
Protests rose that information was given what not the reality of the day-to-day life in Paris. I think than now indication will be given upon origin of the pics.

Georges

[ThomasG]

Jean-Marie Le Pen has said that that "the German occupation was not particularly inhumane, even if there were a few blunders, which is inevitable in a country of 550,000 square kilometers". I fully agree with his view.

[Jon G.]

Jean-Marie Le Pen has said that that "the German occupation was not particularly inhumane, even if there were a few blunders, which is inevitable in a country of 550,000 square kilometers".

How does the opinon of Le Pen - who has a conviction for 'minimizing the holocaust' on record - in any way further your point?

I fully agree with his view.

Do you have anything to support your point of view, other than an excerpt from an exhibit of 1940 propaganda pictures and the words of a convicted politician?

[ThomasG]

How does the opinon of Le Pen - who has a conviction for 'minimizing the holocaust' on record - in any way further your point?

I just said that I agree with his view.

Do you have anything to support your point of view, other than an excerpt from an exhibit of 1940 propaganda pictures and the words of a convicted politician?

The relative lack of atrocities committed against non-Jewish Frenchmen during the occupation of France. German civilians suffered much more after Germany was occupied. Generally speaking, French people 1940-1944 had more food and otherwise better material situation than Germans in 1945.

[Jon G.]

...The relative lack of atrocities committed against non-Jewish Frenchmen during the occupation of France. German civilians suffered much more after Germany was occupied. Generally speaking, French people 1940-1944 had more food and otherwise better material situation than Germans in 1945.

That's a whole string of claims. Can you substantiate any of them? For example, average French food rations 1940-1944 do not become better than German rations in 1945 just because you say so.

Also, why do you distinguish between Jewish and non-Jewish Frenchmen?

[ThomasG]

That's a whole string of claims. Can you substantiate any of them? For example, average French food rations 1940-1944 do not become better than German rations in 1945 just because you say so.

According to this source in the cities of Marseille, Lyon, Paris and Bordeaux the daily calorie intake was 1,600-1,800 calories 1941-1943.
http://picardp1.ivry.cnrs.fr/INH.html

In these cities the food situation was the worst and in the countryside the situation was significantly better.

According to Wikipedia "during 1945 it was estimated that the average German civilian in the U.S. and the United Kingdom occupation zones received 1,200 calories a day" and "the German food situation became worst during the very cold winter of 1946-1947, when German calorie intake ranged from 1,000-1,500 calories per day, a situation made worse by severe lack of fuel for heating."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenhower ... ar_Germany

It is also obvious that for example the housing situation was better in France 1940-1944. Millions of Germans lost their homes as the Eastern territories were annexed by Poland and the USSR and became refugees. The strategic bombings had also destroyed a significant amount of houses in Germany.

Also, why do you distinguish between Jewish and non-Jewish Frenchmen?

Because the Jews were a small minority group which was viciously persecuted and some of them were sent to concentration camps. Their experience during the German occupation was totally different from non-Jewish Frenchmen. I think it is relevant to examine how the majority of Frenchmen lived under the German occupation.

[Jon G.]

...
According to this source in the cities of Marseille, Lyon, Paris and Bordeaux the daily calorie intake was 1,600-1,800 calories 1941-1943...

Now we just need to know the average daily calorie intake of Germany in 1941-1943...

...According to Wikipedia "during 1945 it was estimated that the average German civilian in the U.S. and the United Kingdom occupation zones received 1,200 calories a day" and "the German food situation became worst during the very cold winter of 1946-1947, when German calorie intake ranged from 1,000-1,500 calories per day, a situation made worse by severe lack of fuel for heating."

...and the average French calorie intake in 1945 and 1946-1947. Compare like with like. During the war the average German calorie intake (as expressed by what was covered by ration cards) was ~2,200 calories; for France it was about 1,600.

Also, why do you distinguish between Jewish and non-Jewish Frenchmen?

Because the Jews were a small minority group which was viciously persecuted and some of them were sent to concentration camps. Their experience during the German occupation was totally different from non-Jewish Frenchmen. I think it is relevant to examine how the majority of Frenchmen lived under the German occupation.

Yes. That rather qualifies your 'happy days' thread header.

[ThomasG]

Now we just need to know the average daily calorie intake of Germany in 1941-1943...
...and the average French calorie intake in 1945 and 1946-1947. Compare like with like. During the war the average German calorie intake (as expressed by what was covered by ration cards) was ~2,200 calories; for France it was about 1,600.

And? The average calorie intake in the US was 3,200-3,300 and in Britain 2900 1946-1947. In Germany it ranged from ranged from 1,000-1,500 calories per day then. The German food policy was more humane towards ethnic Frenchmen during the occupation of France than the Allied food policy towards ethnic Germans during the occupation of Germany.

Yes. That rather qualifies your 'happy days' thread header.

The title was used by the Time magazine in the article I linked.

[Jon G.]

Food was in short supply everywhere during the war. The Germans imposed themselves firmly between producers and consumers in occupied countries, taking what they wanted and leaving what they saw fit for the inhabitants of occupied Europe.

Also see this thread

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8&p=651976

German-imposed rations were graduated along racial scales - i.e. less for Slavs and more for Scandinavians, Frenchmen somewhere in between, and least of all for Jews.

...The average calorie intake in the US was 3,200-3,300 and in Britain 2900 1946-1947. In Germany it ranged from ranged from 1,000-1,500 calories per day then. The German food policy was more humane towards ethnic Frenchmen during the occupation of France than the Allied food policy towards ethnic Germans during the occupation of Germany..

How does that support your contention that Paris was experiencing 'happy days' during the German occupation? French rations were smaller than German rations, period.

For what it is worth, the Netherlands were way below German 1946-1947 levels in 1944-1945. Should that lead me to conclude that the Allies were much more humane towards ethnic Germans post-war?