Questions on artillery methods and doctrine

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Harri
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Re: Best artillery nation in WW2?

#46

Post by Harri » 29 Jan 2009, 15:22

RichTO90 wrote:BTW, most of MY sources aren't on the internet, so no doubt will not satisfy Harri?
But I suppose all this will be deleted too?
Hopefully not. That was most interesting.

I know US Army has pioneered in this sector but the results realized mostly during the WW II between 1943 - 1945. There was lots of parallel development because many "inventions" and improvements were top secret. Some inventions were better than the others although all have taken the "credit". For examle in UK radiosondes were seen military stuff while Finnish Vaisala sonde was originally developed as a civilian product that weighted hundreds of grams when the equal British sonde weighted 9 kilogrammes. No wonder it had to be followed with a radar! It needed a huge balloon and rose up probably very slowly. Needles to ask who is still producing radiosondes and which company is the leading one in the world today.

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Re: Best artillery nation in WW2?

#47

Post by Harri » 29 Jan 2009, 16:08

Laurence Strong wrote:
Harri wrote:The weather conditions in Finland are the most demanding in the word (between +35 to -50 degrees Celsius). Most countries can't shoot their guns if a weather is too cold. I would say -20C would stop all activity even today. Finnish artillery could and can still work in all conditions.
Damn, you obviously were not in my 109 in the winter of 1988/89. It was -40C without the wind chill (-60C) in Shilo Manitoba and we were still pounding rounds down range.
Sorry Laurence, countries in the north share these harsh winter conditions. I should have said that usually there is no need to operate in these conditions because the attacker may not be able to operate there (also Russians can).

I must ask did these vehicles and guns work well? I served in the Finnish Defence Forces at the same time although "our winter" was very mild then, mostly above zero, so we could hardly ski.


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Re: Best artillery nation in WW2?

#48

Post by RichTO90 » 29 Jan 2009, 16:44

Harri wrote:Hopefully not. That was most interesting.
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I know US Army has pioneered in this sector but the results realized mostly during the WW II between 1943 - 1945.
The "results" could have hardly been "realized" prior to that since there was little artillery action for them to be engaged in and much of the troops and equipment that were engaged prior to that were on pre-mobilization establishments. In other words, probably less well prepared than the Finns at the beginning of the Winter War? Yet despite that there were some very notable cases of excellent artillery work even then, such as the counterbattery and supporting fires engaged in by the field and coast artillery at Bataan and the excellent use of mobile armored direct and indirect fire artillery there as well. All BTW pieces that dated from the Great War or before. :D
There was lots of parallel development because many "inventions" and improvements were top secret.
Actually, no, there was just less internet chat about them. :D Most of the artillery advances occurring in various countries were published at the time in journals, but they were not always disseminated to other countries and off course the specific levels of equipment and proficiency acheived in operational units had not been advertised. But the files of the US Army European military attaches are replete with detailed discussions regarding the state of practice and various innovations developed in other countries.
Some inventions were better than the others although all have taken the "credit". For examle in UK radiosondes were seen military stuff while Finnish Vaisala sonde was originally developed as a civilian product that weighted hundreds of grams when the equal British sonde weighted 9 kilogrammes. No wonder it had to be followed with a radar! It needed a huge balloon and rose up probably very slowly. Needles to ask who is still producing radiosondes and which company is the leading one in the world today.
Radiosondes were originally a commercial development for civilian meterological use and were quite well known before the war, there was nothing "top secret" about them at all. Their wartime development as a military tool is something else entirely. BTW, the balloon required to lift a 9 kg radiosonde is about 8 cubic meters of hydrogen, which is large, but hardly "huge". Strangely enough though, the photographs I have seen of US Army radiosonde balloons during the war, which is what I was referring too, appear to be about a cubic meter in size. Nor do I understand why you apparently think tracking them with radar was a problem? 8O How else was accurate true (rather than relative) windspeed to be calculated? I suppose Finns did it with theodolites (that were the "leading ones in the world" too)? :roll: 8-) :D

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Re: Best artillery nation in WW2?

#49

Post by Harri » 29 Jan 2009, 17:08

RichTO90 wrote:By 1931 the battalion was the basic unit of fire in the US Field Artillery rather than the battery and all that occurred afterwards was technical refinement...even the graphicla firing tables and range fans developed then remained in use as back ups in the case of computer failure well into the 1990s.
In Finland artillery battalion had become the basic unit of fire already in 1925. The first manual "Fire observing direction for a battery" was written by Col. Nenonen in February 1920. It introduced our first true military secret: "Fire observing card". It was based on the experiences of WW I (Nenonen was a former Russian Imperial Army artillery Lt.Col.). The next manual "Firing regulations for the field artillery" was introduced in 1924. Basically these were used until 1943 when the new manual was introduced.

Our latest system is fully computerized (introduced in 1987 by Nokia, improved combined model also for mortar units introduced in 1997) but basically based on Nenonen's farsighted "theories" and principles. Old methods still remain as back-up in Finland too ("in case of no electricity"), even the old theodolites (the tables have been replaced with pocket computers or lap-tops).

The major problems before Winter War was although the lack of light radios (a rather good artillery radio was designed already in 1925 but the numbers remained low due to a following recession) and the numerous gun models within battalions: in 1939 a typical artillery battalion had two light 76 mm cannon (two different models) and one light 122 mm howitzer (two different models) battery.

The work for modernizing Finnish field artillery had started already in the 1920's but it took until mid 1930's when a 105 mm Bofors howitzer (105 H/37) was selected for our basic artillery piece to replace ancient 76 mm cannons. The licence production was delayed due to a war (and a huge war booty which was first repaired) and did not start earlier than in 1942 but continued until 1944 (total production 130 pcs) and a major part of this batch went to the separate light artillery battalions which moved their older 105 mm or 122 mm weapons to divisional artillery battalions and 75/76 mm guns to the depots or coastal artillery to replace even older weapons.

Some information from the Finnish Artillery Museum (in Finnish):
http://www.tykistomuseo.fi/historia/tyk ... t/nenonen/
Tykistönkenraali Nenonen tiivisti itse nämä perusperiaatteet seuraavasti. Kenttätykistömme kehittämiseen on vaikuttanut ensisijassa kaksi tekijää, peitteinen maastomme ja erikoistuminen tykistön tärkeimpään tehtävään, jalkaväen tukemiseen kaikissa oloissa.

Tykistökenraali Nenonen korosti erityisesti tulen keskittämisen merkitystä. Sillä piti korvata meidän materiaalinen alivoimaisuutemme vastustajaan verrattuna. Tämä tulen keskittämisen periaate tuli vuosien mittaan yhä voimakkaammin esille. Se löi leimansa kaikkeen tulen käytön, ampumamenetelmien ja välineistön kehittämiseen.
Artillery General [V. P.] Nenonen compressed these basic principles as follows. The two main issues that have inluenced on the development of our field artillery are our covered terrain and specialising for the most important task of the artillery: supporting of infantry in all conditions.

Art.Gen Nenonen emphasized especially the meaning of concentrating the fire. It was to balance the material superiority of our opponent. This principle of concentrating fire became more and more strongly into view during the years. It labelled everything in the development of the use of fire, firing methods and equipment.

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Re: Best artillery nation in WW2?

#50

Post by John T » 29 Jan 2009, 19:48

RichTO90 wrote:
There was lots of parallel development because many "inventions" and improvements were top secret.
Actually, no, there was just less internet chat about them. :D Most of the artillery advances occurring in various countries were published at the time in journals, but they were not always disseminated to other countries and off course the specific levels of equipment and proficiency acheived in operational units had not been advertised. But the files of the US Army European military attaches are replete with detailed discussions regarding the state of practice and various innovations developed in other countries.
Well, I got one study report from the Finnish artillery department in summer of 1940.
The Balistic deparment under major Kraemer (Nenonen was obviously one step above and "directed the work")
consisted of Three officers and thirty "calculators" wich of one where Professor and two Doctors, the rest where students with higher mathematical training.

Regarding the Ballistic computations The Finns used a French aerodynamic model, Dupraits 1929 with j= 0.04 and German theoretical research. ReserveLutenant Liikkanen was the Brain at the balistics department, highly impressing on his Swedish guest for his theoretical knowledge. But where concidered too theoretical as they had studied problems wichteh Swede doubdted to had any practical influence.

In Short the department impressed but seemed a bit too theoretical.

The Swedish view in general, both from this visit and earlier reports i read, was favorable to the Finnish methods.
The use of graphical solutions and simplifying the task of the forward observer was seen as better than the old Swedish (and German?) practice where the FO did most of the calculations.

On the other hand the only sources I have seen branding Finnish artllery as the world leader during WW2 has been Finnish.
I would like to see any factual comparisons with other countries to belive that claim.
Not least because Finlands hardware in 1939 must have been among the worst in Europe.

All NCO's claim their unit are the best in the world to thier soldiers, it part of their complexion :)

Cheers
/John T.

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Re: Best artillery nation in WW2?

#51

Post by JonS » 29 Jan 2009, 20:49

----------------------------------


Post again edited by a moderator.
Instead of personal issues, save your energy to the topic.
For personal issues - please use the private message system.



/Juha
Last edited by JonS on 29 Jan 2009, 23:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best artillery nation in WW2?

#52

Post by Juha Tompuri » 29 Jan 2009, 22:08

John T wrote:Well, I got one study report from the Finnish artillery department in summer of 1940.
The Balistic deparment under major Kraemer (Nenonen was obviously one step above and "directed the work")
consisted of Three officers and thirty "calculators" wich of one where Professor and two Doctors, the rest where students with higher mathematical training.

Regarding the Ballistic computations The Finns used a French aerodynamic model, Dupraits 1929 with j= 0.04 and German theoretical research. ReserveLutenant Liikkanen was the Brain at the balistics department, highly impressing on his Swedish guest for his theoretical knowledge. But where concidered too theoretical as they had studied problems wichteh Swede doubdted to had any practical influence.
In a book about Nenonen
http://www.kirjaparoni.net/PublishedSer ... emcode=236
the old method is mentioned as French G.M.H. (Garnier, Haag and Marcus).

Frans Ilmari Liikkanen (doctor 1943 ) is mentioned at the book as the head of the ballistic department
http://www.amazon.co.uk/St%C3%B6rungsth ... B0016UAONG
An episode from the same book:
During Winter War, when Nenonen was at USA at an artillery shopping tour, a bright Finnish mathematic, Rolf Nevanlinna, made some corrections to the Nenonen ballistic calculations.
Nevanlinna invented a faster way to make the calculations, and later they were approved by Nenonen too.
http://www.kansallisbiografia.fi/english/?id=7111


John T wrote:The Swedish view in general, both from this visit and earlier reports i read, was favorable to the Finnish methods.
The use of graphical solutions and simplifying the task of the forward observer was seen as better than the old Swedish (and German?) practice where the FO did most of the calculations.
Yep


Regards, Juha

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Re: Best artillery nation in WW2?

#53

Post by bf109 emil » 29 Jan 2009, 22:08

How is the best artillery and nation determined? was it the quality of cannon, the ability to direct fire, type of munition, battles where artillery turned a defeat into a victory, used to gain a territory of land, needed to complete an amphibious landing? I have read a lot on this thread as to Finnland having the best artillery nation as so with Russia, maybe perhaps, but if it comes to one nation I'd say first and foremost the USA then Great Britain. Maybe Finland and the USSR did have the best of this or that, but the 2 i mentioned had to have artillery which was highly mobile, work in terrain such as the desert, open field, mountainous, cold climates, jungle rain-heat,used for amphibious landings, logistics to be able to ship and transport around the world and to numerous destinations/islands/landing grounds/air transported. Much of which as a nation both Finland, the USSR and France was both unable and did not do during WW2.

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Re: Best artillery nation in WW2?

#54

Post by Juha Tompuri » 29 Jan 2009, 22:29

bf109 emil wrote:How is the best artillery and nation determined? was it the quality of cannon, the ability to direct fire, type of munition, battles where artillery turned a defeat into a victory, used to gain a territory of land, needed to complete an amphibious landing?

Like this:
Simon K wrote:What country had the best artillery doctrine and operations in World War Two?

Not necessarily which country had the best equipment, but which used its artillery force to the best tactical and strategic effect? I would say the U.S.S.R. France and Britain were leaders, but France was unable to use her formidable artillery arm strategically.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4&t=148988

Regards, Juha

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Re: Best artillery nation in WW2?

#55

Post by RichTO90 » 29 Jan 2009, 23:50

Harri, please stop with the strawmen.

First you argued that the Finnish artillery was the "best in Europe" when the question originally wasn't qualified to "Europe". Then you decided to make your argument that the Finns had unique capabilities, after JonS said that they were not. Now you evidently have decided to recast the argument as "who was first to do what"?
Harri wrote:In Finland artillery battalion had become the basic unit of fire already in 1925.
So what? Your original claim implied that nobody else did so in World War II.
The first manual "Fire observing direction for a battery" was written by Col. Nenonen in February 1920. It introduced our first true military secret: "Fire observing card". It was based on the experiences of WW I (Nenonen was a former Russian Imperial Army artillery Lt.Col.). The next manual "Firing regulations for the field artillery" was introduced in 1924. Basically these were used until 1943 when the new manual was introduced.
So what? Your originally inference was that no one other than the Finns were clever enough to do so. Graphical firing tables, range fans and other such devices were experimented with, developed, and available well before the US entry into the war as well. The US Army Field Artillery Manuals were also updated regularly during the 1920s, in 1938, 1940, 1942, 1944, and 1945. Are you now trying to see who revised their manuals the most? :D
Our latest system is fully computerized (introduced in 1987 by Nokia, improved combined model also for mortar units introduced in 1997) but basically based on Nenonen's farsighted "theories" and principles. Old methods still remain as back-up in Finland too ("in case of no electricity"), even the old theodolites (the tables have been replaced with pocket computers or lap-tops).
Yep, most people maintain backups...how that relates to World War II is a bit beyond me though? :D
The major problems before Winter War was although the lack of light radios (a rather good artillery radio was designed already in 1925 but the numbers remained low due to a following recession) and the numerous gun models within battalions: in 1939 a typical artillery battalion had two light 76 mm cannon (two different models) and one light 122 mm howitzer (two different models) battery.
The US Army Ordnance manufactured no new field artillery pieces between 1921 and September 1940 except a few prototype M1926 (M1) 105mm howitzers that were never put into production and various other prototypes. Everything else was remanufacturing of pieces built prior to 1921.

Although what the point of such competition is on your part I don't know? Are you trying to show who was the poorest? What does that have to do with capabilities during World War II?

BTW, most fire orders were transmitted by landline for security and clarity, radios generally were a backup or were critical for highly mobile operations.
The work for modernizing Finnish field artillery had started already in the 1920's but it took until mid 1930's when a 105 mm Bofors howitzer (105 H/37) was selected for our basic artillery piece to replace ancient 76 mm cannons. The licence production was delayed due to a war (and a huge war booty which was first repaired) and did not start earlier than in 1942 but continued until 1944 (total production 130 pcs) and a major part of this batch went to the separate light artillery battalions which moved their older 105 mm or 122 mm weapons to divisional artillery battalions and 75/76 mm guns to the depots or coastal artillery to replace even older weapons.
Wow, they were in pretty good shape compared to the US Army in the 1930s. :roll:
:lol:

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Re: Best artillery nation in WW2?

#56

Post by JonS » 29 Jan 2009, 23:56

Harri wrote:Also you talked about mobile artillery. At the beginning of WW II there was no such anywhere. Traditional artillery fires from one position and then moves to another place unit by unit, then fires again and so forth. I don't know why this would be much worse than operating with self-propelled guns? Actually towed guns have also advantages: individual guns are much more easy to camouflage, need less maintenance, are much cheaper etc.
No, I talked about mobile doctrine. Why you are continue to focus on mobility of the pieces is beyond me. The guns themselves have been mobile since the 1500s ... nothing much new there. Also, SP guns still don't fire on the move* , so I've no idea why you'd even bring that up.

Jon

* Fire on the move operationally. I'm sure they can do it as a party trick.
Last edited by JonS on 02 Feb 2009, 04:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best artillery nation in WW2?

#57

Post by Harri » 30 Jan 2009, 00:47

RichTO90 wrote:Harri, please stop with the strawmen.
Sorry I didn't find the sources I needed so I had a bit "chaotic" start.
RichTO90 wrote:First you argued that the Finnish artillery was the "best in Europe" when the question originally wasn't qualified to "Europe". Then you decided to make your argument that the Finns had unique capabilities, after JonS said that they were not. Now you evidently have decided to recast the argument as "who was first to do what"?
See my previous comment. In "best in Europe" I meant better than European super powers Germany, USSR, France and UK.
RichTO90 wrote:
Harri wrote:In Finland artillery battalion had become the basic unit of fire already in 1925.
So what? Your original claim implied that nobody else did so in World War II.
Did they? We just red that US Army did it in 1931.
RichTO90 wrote:
Harri wrote:The first manual "Fire observing direction for a battery" was written by Col. Nenonen in February 1920. It introduced our first true military secret: "Fire observing card". It was based on the experiences of WW I (Nenonen was a former Russian Imperial Army artillery Lt.Col.). The next manual "Firing regulations for the field artillery" was introduced in 1924. Basically these were used until 1943 when the new manual was introduced.
So what? Your originally inference was that no one other than the Finns were clever enough to do so. Graphical firing tables, range fans and other such devices were experimented with, developed, and available well before the US entry into the war as well. The US Army Field Artillery Manuals were also updated regularly during the 1920s, in 1938, 1940, 1942, 1944, and 1945. Are you now trying to see who revised their manuals the most?
This means Finnish doctrine was good since the beginning. Only minor enhancement was needed.
RichTO90 wrote:
Harri wrote:Our latest system is fully computerized (introduced in 1987 by Nokia, improved combined model also for mortar units introduced in 1997) but basically based on Nenonen's farsighted "theories" and principles. Old methods still remain as back-up in Finland too ("in case of no electricity"), even the old theodolites (the tables have been replaced with pocket computers or lap-tops).
Yep, most people maintain backups...how that relates to World War II is a bit beyond me though?
It was a reply to a similar comment.
RichTO90 wrote:
Harri wrote:The major problems before Winter War was although the lack of light radios (a rather good artillery radio was designed already in 1925 but the numbers remained low due to a following recession) and the numerous gun models within battalions: in 1939 a typical artillery battalion had two light 76 mm cannon (two different models) and one light 122 mm howitzer (two different models) battery.
The US Army Ordnance manufactured no new field artillery pieces between 1921 and September 1940 except a few prototype M1926 (M1) 105mm howitzers that were never put into production and various other prototypes. Everything else was remanufacturing of pieces built prior to 1921.
Really? Actually Soviets didn't introduce any totally new artillery pieces during the war but lots of modifications of their numerous older designs.
RichTO90 wrote:Although what the point of such competition is on your part I don't know? Are you trying to show who was the poorest? What does that have to do with capabilities during World War II?
I think this was about the "Best artillery nation in WW II"? Well, at least I managed to provoke a good discussion. :lol:

It seems we have a completely different view on what makes someone's field artillery better. I try to show the elements that were important from the Finnish point of view.
RichTO90 wrote:BTW, most fire orders were transmitted by landline for security and clarity, radios generally were a backup or were critical for highly mobile operations.
Also in Finland until 1940 but things changed after that. Wireless connections were needed because of damages caused by massive Soviet artillery and aerial attacks. The orders were so short or sent in bursts [target name, fire form (not always) and order "fire"] that enemy usually had no means to respond on these or take advantage of an order (after the firing has started). The biggest drawback was that sometimes there were also "Soviet FOs" (giving orders in Finnish) in the Finnish network! Soviets could spot Finnish FOs if radios were used for chatting. Also Soviets used short range radios in 1944 which was bad for our effective radio intelligence.

Like you see we have finally started finding things which differed Finnish and Western artilleries. And actually wire connections (or optical fibre cables) are still more safe unless a really good encrypting device is used.
RichTO90 wrote:
Harri wrote:The work for modernizing Finnish field artillery had started already in the 1920's but it took until mid 1930's when a 105 mm Bofors howitzer (105 H/37) was selected for our basic artillery piece to replace ancient 76 mm cannons. The licence production was delayed due to a war (and a huge war booty which was first repaired) and did not start earlier than in 1942 but continued until 1944 (total production 130 pcs) and a major part of this batch went to the separate light artillery battalions which moved their older 105 mm or 122 mm weapons to divisional artillery battalions and 75/76 mm guns to the depots or coastal artillery to replace even older weapons.
Wow, they were in pretty good shape compared to the US Army in the 1930s.
[/quote]

Like I said I definately was not talking about modern Finnish artillery pieces. But our tactical and theoretical knowledge was far ahead of this deficiency in equipment. Basically this progression much decreased other lacks which have been finally corrected as late as in the 1980's (nowadays our smallest calibre is 122 mm like Gen. Nenonen had wished already in the 1920's. So it took about 60 years to built the field artillery originally planned! This proves how farsighted man Nenonen had been back in the 1920's!

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Re: Best artillery nation in WW2?

#58

Post by Simon K » 30 Jan 2009, 01:01

Gentlemen, I know little about the high art of gunnery, but this is a provocative debate. And I am learning from it. Unfortunately, I dont know whom is right at the mo. :wink:

I found this
The artillery branch concentrated on mortars and howitzers, the kind of light,high angle weapons that were suitable for the terrain. The gunners developed new techniques to compensate for the limitations the forest presented to range finding and observation. Every part of Finland that might eventually become a target for Finnish gun crews was meticulously mapped and ranged, to the inch, from probable battery positions. The precision and economy of their fire-control procedures would give the ammunition starved Finnish gunners a slight edge over their more lavishly equipped Russian counterparts when the shooting started
William R Trotter The Winter War p42.

It does sound more evolutionary than revolutionary. And driven by expediency, obviously.
Last edited by Simon K on 30 Jan 2009, 01:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best artillery nation in WW2?

#59

Post by JAK » 30 Jan 2009, 01:12

Hi!

First of all, sorry if my english isn't very good.

As I read this thread, have to comment on the finnish artillery that for a poor mans army it was efficient and advanced, able respond fast, accuretly and able to concentrate available guns on crucial points. For example stopping in -44 battles in Karelian Isthmus russian attacks on their starting gounds.

I haven't read much about artillery but I have come across time and again fact that US artillery was able to just about the same with most of the time devastating results on germans or japanese.

As for the original questions are there really other candidates than US and USSR? I mean they seem so much stronger than just about any of the other candidates.

Lastly as in this thread have been mentioned, the german artillery is often mentioned inferior to allied and as I know really little about the subject, I would appreciate if someone would ellaborate me in this or could point good book on the matter.

- Jari

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Re: Best artillery nation in WW2?

#60

Post by Simon K » 30 Jan 2009, 01:17

Jari, remember British artillery was outstanding in WW1 and continued its fine reputation in WW2. Some of the British pieces were outstanding designs too.
As I think has been mentioned, German gunnery suffered from the new pre- emenace of the LW, which was fine until they lost air parity.
Last edited by Simon K on 30 Jan 2009, 01:21, edited 1 time in total.

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