aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers

#46

Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Jun 2009, 23:23

phylo_roadking wrote:
At WWI fighters unlikely shot down bombers?
Writing it on that word order seems to put some doubt into Hooton's words as to their actual ability to hit the target at all; that's not what he's saying. Looked at in the way HE wrote it...
The fighters' machineguns could inflict little damage upon multi-engined bombers in particular, and an aerial victory over a bomber generally remained unlikely
..and he's talking about the difficulty a WWI fighter would have attacking a WWI multi-engined bomber and doing enough damage to the machine to bring it down -


You mention Hooton wrote:
an aerial victory over a bomber generally remained unlikely
phylo_roadking earlier wrote:The WWI experience was that bombers with rifle-calibre defensive armament were more than capable of standing off attackers of an equivalent performance with twin rifle calibre offensive armament
Did you actually mean that "The WWI experience was that multi-engined bombers with rifle-calibre defensive armament were more than capable of standing off attackers of an equivalent performance with twin rifle calibre offensive armament"?

Stringbag had only one engine

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Re: aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers

#47

Post by phylo_roadking » 30 Jun 2009, 23:40

Juha, I'm quite aware of that. He also remarks that the British experience was that single-engined multi-role aircraft...and they don't come much more multi-role that the Swordfish!Light bomber, torpedo bomber, ASW duties... with rear-firing MGs were regarded by them as the perfect aircraft in the interwar years. Hence the British tardiness at developing and introducing performance multi-engined bomber types again. The commonly-held opinion was that such a defensive armament was enough to stand off fighters as THEY stood in development terms at the beginning of the 1930s.

My point to Dili was that attacking incoming Swordfish with an Ro.43 would be them attacking the 1933-34-designed RN aircraft with an aircraft designed in 1933-34 to 1933-34 standards that emulated WWI standards of armament - the sort of attacker the Stringbag was designed to hold off when it was built.
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 30 Jun 2009, 23:46, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers

#48

Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Jun 2009, 23:45

phylo_roadking wrote:Khalkin Gor...when the Japanese claimed nearly 1300 Russian aircraft downed; this was later revised DOWN to 200...
Probably the same with the other side.
phylo_roadking wrote: Although nimble as mentioned before, the airframe couldn't cope with high-speed stress, and both the Russians and the AVG soon cottoned onto the simple expedient of diving away and picking up speed rather than try to dogfight them; a Nate pilot couldn't attempt to match the manouver or risk a crack-up.
No such problems the planes in question.
Also according to the Finnish experience the Soviet pilots did not use diving as evasive manouver because of their plane weakness.

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Re: aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers

#49

Post by phylo_roadking » 30 Jun 2009, 23:51

No such problems the planes in question.
Referring to the Ki-27??? See Graham & Swanborough "The Agile Asian...Japan's Type 97 Fighter", AirEnthusiast 1978. IIRC...although it's been years since I read it.
Also according to the Finnish experience the Soviet pilots did not use diving as evasive manouver because of their plane weakness.
And so it categorically didn't happen somewhere else? Just because it didn't happen in Finland? :lol: Finland is not the Manchurian border.

EDIT: you might be interested in taking a look at this page...http://www.warbirdforum.com/nomon3.htm
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 01 Jul 2009, 00:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers

#50

Post by phylo_roadking » 30 Jun 2009, 23:59

Khalkin Gor...when the Japanese claimed nearly 1300 Russian aircraft downed; this was later revised DOWN to 200...
Probably the same with the other side.
Read for yourself. http://www.warbirdforum.com/nomonhan.htm and http://www.warbirdforum.com/nomon2.htm
Surely, the victory claims of both sides (JAAF and VVS) were enourmously exaggerated. According to official Soviet data, VVS claimed more then 650 enemy a/c; the VVS losses were stated as 143 a/c. Later, in 1980-ies, this estiamtion of own Soviet losses was revised upwards: 207 a/c (including 160 fighter planes). So it is interesting to compare this data with the JAAF victory claims (1000+) and real losses of the Japanese a/c....
So the Russians claimed over 650 and did
JAAF casualties 141 killed, including 17 officers squadron leader or higher, w/ highest ranking being Col ABE Katsumi, c/o 15th Sentai. One-third of losses were over enemy lines. Plus 89 wounded. 10% of casualties in May and June, 26 percent in July, 50 percent in August, 14 percent in September
....the Japanese claimed 1252 (IIRC) and actually scored 207. In other words, the Japanese claimed DOUBLE what the Russians claimed...for very roughly the same scale of real loss.

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Re: aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers

#51

Post by Takao » 01 Jul 2009, 00:27

Wow, this post really took off since I last looked at it. This I had composed this morning, but didn't get a chance to post.

phylo_roadking, in his post on June 29 @ 04:09, summed up the Japanese experience with floatplanes very well. The floatplanes proved their worth while the Japanese remained on the offensive. They could set up shop and operate in areas where it was impractical to construct an airfield and freed up the carriers for more important operations. This allowed the Japanese to provide air support where they needed it and when they needed it.

However, the majority of the early war usage of the seaplane tenders was against the British & Dutch forces and not the Americans in the Philippines. Japan had land-based aircraft the could reach the Phillipines and that target was important enough for the IJN to use carriers. Also, it wasn't so much that the Japanese "discovered" that the tide was turning against the seaplane, they knew that. The float planes primary use was to proivde air support for amphibious operations when none was availible by other means. When Japan went over to the defensive in late 1942 - early 1943, they had to fight with what weapons they had. Neither were the seaplane carriers "expensive" nor were they useless. Many of the Japanese seaplanes carriers were converted merchantmen and tankers, only four; the Chitose, Chiyoda, Mizuho, and the Nisshin were the only purposely built seaplane carriers. Once the tide turned against Japan, most of the converted seaplane carriers reverted to their original duties, the Chitose and Chiyoda were converted to "proper" (light) aircraft carriers, and the Nisshin was modified to carry midget submarines, the Mizuho was sunk in May, 1942, by the USS Drum. The seaplane carriers were also not a "compromise," they filled a niche that existed in Japanese offensive strategy, and they filled it well. However, that niche was disappeared when Japan had to revert to a defensive strategy.


Good to see you LWD! Yes, I agree with you about the torpedos vs. battleships. But the Matapan battle had been being discussed and the Italians had only one battleship vs six heavy and two light cruisers. As we both know, anything airborne and carrying a payload is a threat to both light and heavy cruisers.

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Re: aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers

#52

Post by Juha Tompuri » 01 Jul 2009, 00:42

phylo_roadking wrote:So the Russians claimed over 650 and did
JAAF casualties 141 killed, including 17 officers squadron leader or higher, w/ highest ranking being Col ABE Katsumi, c/o 15th Sentai. One-third of losses were over enemy lines. Plus 89 wounded. 10% of casualties in May and June, 26 percent in July, 50 percent in August, 14 percent in September
....the Japanese claimed 1252 (IIRC) and actually scored 207. In other words, the Japanese claimed DOUBLE what the Russians claimed...for very roughly the same scale of real loss.
Soviet claimed over 650 and did:
official Japanese data, 90 Japanese a/c were lost in combat.
http://www.warbirdforum.com/nomon2.htm
7.2 fold overclaim

Japanese claimed 1252 and did:
estiamtion of own Soviet losses was revised upwards: 207 a/c
http://www.warbirdforum.com/nomon2.htm
6.0 fold overclaim

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Re: aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers

#53

Post by phylo_roadking » 01 Jul 2009, 00:50

Takao -
the majority of the early war usage of the seaplane tenders was against the British & Dutch forces and not the Americans in the Philippines
I said earlier "And of course they operated most notably in many of the early peripheral ops and landings in the Philippines"

From Combinedfleet -
8 December 1941: Operation “M” - The Invasion of the Southern Philippines:
CHITOSE and MIZUHO are attached to Rear Admiral (later Vice Admiral) Kubo Kyuji's (former CO of MIKUMA) Second Fleet, Fourth Surprise Attack Force to provide air cover for the invasion landings at Legaspi, Philippines. Kubo's seven troop transports are escorted by DesRon 10’s light cruiser NAGARA, and DesDiv 24’s KAWAKAZE, SUZUKAZE, UMIKAZE and YAMAKAZE. Departs Palau.

11-12 December 1941:
Covers the landing of troops at Legaspi, Luzon, Philippines.

14 December 1941:
Catanduanes Island, off Legaspi, Philippines. A Boeing B-17 “Flying Fortress”from Del Monte on an anti-shipping mission passes over the island and is unsuccessfully attacked by a Mitsubishi F1M2 ‘Pete’ from CHITOSE.

19 December 1941:
200 miles E of Davao, Philippines. CHITOSE launches planes to reconnoiter Davao. Light carrier RYUJO launches six planes to attack the radio station at Cape San Augustin.

20-25 December 1941: The Seizure of Davao and Jolo, Philippines:
CHITOSE is attached to Rear Admiral Tanka Raizo's Attack Force with RYUJO and CruDiv 5’s NACHI, HAGURO and MYOKO. Supports the invasion landings at Davao and Jolo.
The problem with "However, that niche was disappeared when Japan had to revert to a defensive strategy."...is that that niche, arguably over-specialised in the case of Chitose, Chiyoda, Mizuho, and Nisshin, disappeared in a year. A very short window for the expense of constructing those four specific vessels is what i should have said.

EDIT: less than a year - the Nisshin is hauling cargo as of the 3rd October 1942. That's a window of only ten months :(
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 01 Jul 2009, 01:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers

#54

Post by Juha Tompuri » 01 Jul 2009, 00:51

phylo_roadking wrote:
No such problems the planes in question.
Referring to the Ki-27???
No.
Referring to the planes in original question, aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers.
Twin rifle-calibre gun attacker, Ki-27 here as an example, against bombers.
phylo_roadking wrote:
Also according to the Finnish experience the Soviet pilots did not use diving as evasive manouver because of their plane weakness.
And so it categorically didn't happen somewhere else? Just because it didn't happen in Finland? :lol: Finland is not the Manchurian border.
Yes, but the (Soviet) planes were the same (and the pilots too)
phylo_roadking wrote:EDIT: you might be interested in taking a look at this page...http://www.warbirdforum.com/nomon3.htm
Intersting.
Seems that the Soviet side might have learned something from those experiments.


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Re: aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers

#55

Post by phylo_roadking » 01 Jul 2009, 00:58

Seems that the Soviet side might have learned something from those experiments.
...and applied it in Manchuria. Finland is a separate case...
but the (Soviet) planes were the same (and the pilots too)
...but the enemy wasn't. One would presume that they didn't apply the tactic as they weren't fighting Ki-27s in Finland...
according to the official Japanese data, 90 Japanese a/c were lost in combat.
...and these would be the same "official Japanese data" that countenanced the 1252 claims? The question of course is - "official" then, or "official" now? The article doesn't make that clear.

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Re: aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers

#56

Post by Juha Tompuri » 01 Jul 2009, 01:21

phylo_roadking wrote:
Seems that the Soviet side might have learned something from those experiments.
...and applied it in Manchuria. Finland is a separate case...
but the (Soviet) planes were the same (and the pilots too)
...but the enemy wasn't. One would presume that they didn't apply the tactic as they weren't fighting Ki-27s in Finland...
Do you think Soviet side would have change tactics against few dozen Finnish fighters?
phylo_roadking earlier wrote:
Juha wrote:Also according to the Finnish experience the Soviet pilots did not use diving as evasive manouver because of their plane weakness.
And so it categorically didn't happen somewhere else? Just because it didn't happen in Finland? :lol: Finland is not the Manchurian border.
I-153 was unfortunate aircraft. Its engine could stopped in diving and its wings could disintegrated. The undercarriage was also unreliable. The mass production of this plane was a serious mistake of the Soviet leadership.
http://www.warbirdforum.com/nomon3.htm

phylo_roadking wrote:
according to the official Japanese data, 90 Japanese a/c were lost in combat.
...and these would be the same "official Japanese data" that countenanced the 1252 claims? The question of course is - "official" then, or "official" now? The aticle doesn't make that clear.
At that article there are Soviet/Russian estimates and official Japanese numbers.
Fell free to sourced correction of them.

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Re: aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers

#57

Post by phylo_roadking » 01 Jul 2009, 01:33

Do you think Soviet side would have change tactics against few dozen Finnish fighters?
It doesn't matter how many or how few - when faced with a different enemy with a different set of skills flying different aircraft with different capabilities and speciifications...are you really saying they wouldn't? If you read the articles you'll see that the Russian fighter pilots in Manchuria were briefed on what were viewed as specific weaknesses of Japanese types. Are you assuming they wouldn't similarly be briefed on Finnish types?
I-153 was unfortunate aircraft. Its engine could stopped in diving and its wings could disintegrated. The undercarriage was also unreliable. The mass production of this plane was a serious mistake of the Soviet leadership.
http://www.warbirdforum.com/nomon3.htm
So? We ended up in Manchuria as a result of your wish to involve the 2xrifle-calibre armed Ki-27. What has the I-153 got to do with this particular thread? That is taking the thread even more off-topic.
At that article there are Soviet/Russian estimates and official Japanese numbers.
Fell free to sourced correction of them.
Why would I? I've no interest in pursuing the issuebeyond asking the question " "official" then, or "official" now?" and making the point that "The article doesn't make that clear." Especially given the change over the years from "official" Russian losses of 207 up to 249.

And "At that article there are Soviet/Russian estimates and official Japanese numbers" doesn't answer what *I* asked.

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Re: aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers

#58

Post by Takao » 01 Jul 2009, 02:29

I would like to point out that the officers of the battleship Bismarck had, at least, considered the possibility of using the Arado to shoot down or chase off the pursuing PBY Catalina on May 26, 1941. From an old post of mine, discussing a similar situation in this thread http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 49&start=0
The Bismarck's bridge team had debated about using the Arados to chase off the Catalina on 26 May, But Captain Lindemann nixed the idea. His reasoning was that the risks involved in recovering the aircraft in heavy seas were to great. As for defending against the Swordfish, there simply was not enough time to launch the aircraft. At the start of an attack, the Arado would have been stowed in the hanger, without fuel or ammunition. So you would have to unstow the Arado, fuel & arm it, place it on the catapult, warm up the engine, turn the ship so that the catapult is roughly facing the wind, and then launch. I doubt the Swordfish will obligingly wait to attack until all of that has been completed. You might argue that the Arado could have been kept fully fueled on the cat, but that defies logic. A fuelled aircraft is a major fire hazard and by having it out in the open where it could be easily damaged, by the heavy weather present during most of the Bismarck's voyage, greatly increases the risk of a BOOM!
As Dili has graciously pointed out the float plane could fly to several different fields to land. But, here is the downfall of the Italians, even though several fields were within flying distance little or no effort was made to provide them with air support or, apparently, reconnaissance. Possibly this was because the Italians believed that there was only one British battleship in the vicinity, not three and an aircraft carrier.

I think we can all agree that for every example of a multi-kill pilot, there is an equal rebuttal of a plane lost to a rear seat gunner.

Phylo,
I'm sorry if you took offense to my posting about the seaplane carriers seeing little action in the Philippines. I was clarifying, for other readers, that the Japanese seaplane tenders saw little action in the taking of the Philippines. As you have quoted from Combined Fleet, half a month of action, and, IIRC, only two of the tenders briefly participated there. My point was that they saw extensive action against the British and Dutch, which you have chosen not to quote. Neither did I as it would take up a few pages.

Twice now, have mentioned the "expense" of the seaplane tenders. If these ships had not been built, what would Japan have done with the savings? The answer for the Chitose and Chiyoda is nothing. When those ships were constructed, Japan was maxed, or nearly so, on all ship classes regulated by the Washington and London Naval treaties. Also, all four seaplane carriers were part another popular Japanese niche, the midget submarine. Both ships could carry 12 midget submarines along with their aircraft. But, then again, Japan also believed that the war would end quickly and that all they required was a strong offensive force to win the day. Neglecting the fact that one of equal defensive measure would be required to keep their new conquests. As you have said, these ships were overly specialized.

I'm surprised you did not mention the fact that the Nisshin was not completed until after the war began and the only action her aircraft participated in was at Midway.

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Re: aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers

#59

Post by phylo_roadking » 01 Jul 2009, 02:41

I'm sorry if you took offense to my posting about the seaplane carriers seeing little action in the Philippines. I was clarifying, for other readers, that the Japanese seaplane tenders saw little action in the taking of the Philippines. As you have quoted from Combined Fleet, half a month of action, and, IIRC, only two of the tenders briefly participated there. My point was that they saw extensive action against the British and Dutch, which you have chosen not to quote. Neither did I as it would take up a few pages.
Takao, don't worry, not offence, just filling the gap. I'd known at least one of the tenders was in the Philippines for years, John Bulkeley's Squadron Three encountered Petes from it IIRC.
If these ships had not been built, what would Japan have done with the savings? The answer for the Chitose and Chiyoda is nothing. When those ships were constructed, Japan was maxed, or nearly so, on all ship classes regulated by the Washington and London Naval treaties.
..and what they THEN should have done is begin the conversion of the Chitose and Nisshin on the 8th of December - and not go through with the "apparent" conversion of the Chitose to carry midget subs in the early summer of 1941...
Also, all four seaplane carriers were part another popular Japanese niche, the midget submarine. Both ships could carry 12 midget submarines along with their aircraft
I say "apparent" for strangely, I found this as a footnote on Combinedfleet...
Authors’ Notes:
Sources vary concerning the configuration of CHITOSE, CHIYODA, NISSHIN and MIZUHO. All were constructed as seaplane carriers capable of carrying 24 floatplanes. CHIYODA was later converted to enable her to carry 12 midget submarines. This modification reduced her floatplane capacity to 12 aircraft. NISSHIN, completed during wartime, was constructed as a seaplane/midget submarine carrier. While it has been suggested that CHITOSE and MIZUHO also carried midget submarines, Japanese sources do not support that assertion


As for
I'm surprised you did not mention the fact that the Nisshin was not completed until after the war began and the only action her aircraft participated in was at Midway.
I'm not in any way an expert on the IJN...though I'm overly familiar with the Chitose for...other reasons... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: aircraft defense capability of battleships and cruisers

#60

Post by Dili » 01 Jul 2009, 02:53

My point to Dili was that attacking incoming Swordfish with an Ro.43 would be them attacking the 1933-34-designed RN aircraft with an aircraft designed in 1933-34 to 1933-34 standards that emulated WWI standards of armament - the sort of attacker the Stringbag was designed to hold off when it was built.
It also had a quite high performance at a 230 mph at the beginning of the Pacific War compared to American non-floatplane two-and three man bombers with defensive armament like for example the 206mph TBD Devastator.

The Ro.43 with 186mph vs Sworfish 138mph,and the Ro.44 w/2x12.7 and +200mph

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