Comparative air force performance & a/c production

[RichTO90]

Hi Rich, what was Luftflotte 3's area?

France and the Low Countries.

[The_Enigma]

Cheers Rich

If am not mistaken then that raises Luftwaffe losses (going off your figure, and the one i presented before which am sure was the LF3 figure as i left out the losses suffered over the Reich) to around 1,100 machines in around 21,000 sorties in the battlezone? And there is still several weeks worth of fighting left by this point.

Am thinking by this point Allied sorties was at least 5 times this, considering your figure above and the roughly 160,000 flown all over the show in June.

[RichTO90]

Also, in 1940, Britain made 4,000 fighters, Germany made 3,100. In 1944, Germany made 29,000 fighters and Britain made 10,000. But in 1940, Germany had airsuperiority over most of Europe and the RAF could only manage to not get completely destroyed, in 1944 RAF had air supremacy over most of Europe, while the Luftwaffe was trying to offer some resistance to the bombers.

Guaporense:German fighter production in 1940 was 2746,in 1944 25285 (or maybe you are counting ground-attack aircraft as fighters ?)Source :The Luftwaffe War Diaries (C.Bekker)Appendix XIII

I just realized, he's playing games with figures again, apparently under the odd assumption that nobody will notice.

Even more oddly, he's using the charts from The Strategic Air War against Germany, 1939-1945: Report of the British Bombing Survey Unit (it is not the "British Bombing Survey") rather than the more comprehensive and accurate data of the later USSBS Aircraft Industry Report.

Anyway, German single-engine fighter production in 1940 was 1,870 (1,868 Bf-109 and 2 FW-190), while twin-engine fighter production was 1,236. In 1944 single-engine fighter production was 25,860 (11,411 Bf-109, 14,212 FW-190, 237 Me-163) and twin-engine was 3,066 (37 Me-262).

Oddly enough, I thought this guy's original argument was that the Germans were just so darned efficient compared to those lackadaisical allies? Maybe that explains why the oh so efficient and clever Teutons refused to scale back operations to enhance training capabilities throughout 1939-1943...until it was too late, while simultaneously increasing production facilities, resources, and requirements?

[RichTO90]

Oddly enough, I thought this guy's original argument was that the Germans were just so darned efficient compared to those lackadaisical allies? Maybe that explains why the oh so efficient and clever Teutons refused to scale back operations to enhance training capabilities throughout 1939-1943...until it was too late, while simultaneously increasing production facilities, resources, and requirements?

In respect to this assumption of his...

"5. Analysis of the Production Record
b. The total monthly production of the German aircraft industry, measured in airframe pounds, never exceede twice the peak monthly output of the Ford Willow Run plant. The combined airframe weight output, on a monthly basis, of three other plants in the United States, Boeing-Seattle, Douglas-Long Beach, and Consolidated Vultee-San Diego, far exceeded the peak output of Germany and the countries it occupied. Making allowance for variations in airplane types, the following plants in the United States roughly equalled the German industry, when compared on the basis of airframe weight: North American Aviation plants at Inglewood, Kansas City, and Dallas "A", Republic Aircraft plants at Farmingdale and Evansville, Lockheed Aircraft (including Vega Division) at Burbank, and Douglas Aircraft at Santa Monica." (USSBS, Aviaton Division Industry Report)

[RichTO90]

Jagdgruppen Aircraft Losses 1944 (To Enemy Action)

JG 1 = 564
JG 2 = 623
JG 3 = 909
JG 4 = 397
JG 5 = 284
JG 6 = 110
JG 7 = 4
JGr 10 = 7
JG 11 = 628
JG 26 = 537
JG 27 = 846
JG 51 = 289
JG 52 = 245
JG 53 = 577
JG 54 = 450
JG 76 = 77
JG 77 = 301
JG 300 = 578
JG 301 = 141
JG 302 = 180
JG 400 = 6
JGr 200 = 34
JGr Sued = 26
JGr West = 42
JGr Ost = 31
Misc = 3

Would you like the losses "not to enemy action" (which BTW do not include returns for overhaul)? They total over 5,789.

[Meyer]

Thanks Rich, great info. I was suspecting that the "ohne Feindeinwerkung" category did not include overhaul returns. What would be the german name for that category? (so I could google it ), and do you have any info for that? It could solve Guaporense's equation

[The_Enigma]

Sorry for sounding dense but those figures, are they total losses all over Europe? Also the JG, if my understand is correct, is essentially the RAF "Wing"/USAAF "Group" correct?

[RichTO90]

Thanks Rich, great info. I was suspecting that the "ohne Feindeinwerkung" category did not include overhaul returns. What would be the german name for that category? (so I could google it ), and do you have any info for that? It could solve Guaporense's equation

Überholung. Those are the ones returned for factory repair. By some accounts though most were simply junked since emphasis was on new production rather than production of repair parts and repairs. I can give an account of those too, but they aren't nearly as many as the number lost ohne Feindeinwerkung I suspect. Then there were transfers from unit to unit, but those aircraft weren't actually "losses".

[RichTO90]

Sorry for sounding dense but those figures, are they total losses all over Europe? Also the JG, if my understand is correct, is essentially the RAF "Wing"/USAAF "Group" correct?

Yes, it is total losses to the operational and training units of the Jagdwaffe, although the number ohne Feindeinwerkung is just for the operational units. Jagdgeschwader or JG was equivalent to a British Wing or US Group. The JG was comprised usually of three Jagdgruppen or JGr, which were also independent. They are equivalent to the US squadron. The JGr was comprised usually of three Staffeln, equivalent to the US Flight or British Squadron

[Jon G.]

Much good Luftwaffe data can be found here. Once you've found the unit you're interested in, click on the unit page and scroll down to the bottom of the page to find the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen for the unit in question.

For example, here is a link to the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen for II/JG26 The tables are in German but should not be difficult to read even if you never learned that language.

'Istbestand Monatserster' - actual number on strength as of the first of the month.
'Anzahl' - number. 'Muster' further particularizes the total into models where appropriate; then the 'Zugang' header lists all additions to strength during the month in question - 'Insgesamt' - total; 'Neufertigung' - factory-new deliveries; 'Reparatur' - (from) repair, and 'von andere Verbände' - from other units.

Same for the other half of the tables - 'Abgang' specifies departures during the month in question; the total ('Insgesamt') is specified as losses due to enemy action ('durch Feindinwirkung'); losses not caused by enemy action ('ohne Feindinwirkung'); aircraft sent to overhaul ('Überholung'), and, finally, aircraft sent to other units ('an andere Verbände') to give a total number as of the last of the month, or 'Istbestand Monatsletzer'.

Simple and easy to use. The only drawback is that data for many units is incomplete due to the destruction of Luftwaffe archives towards the end of the war.

[Meyer]

Überholung. Those are the ones returned for factory repair. By some accounts though most were simply junked since emphasis was on new production rather than production of repair parts and repairs. I can give an account of those too, but they aren't nearly as many as the number lost ohne Feindeinwerkung I suspect. Then there were transfers from unit to unit, but those aircraft weren't actually "losses".

Thank you.

[RichTO90]

Much good Luftwaffe data can be found here. Once you've found the unit you're interested in, click on the unit page and scroll down to the bottom of the page to find the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen for the unit in question.

Yep. And when you go through the time and trouble to create Excel spreadsheets from the figures you can post figures for the actual combat losses reported by the operational units rather than guesses based upon fragmentary data and rather odd assumptions about how the world works...I'm still trying to figure out what "13%" has to do with anything...

Cheers!

[The_Enigma]

Sorry for sounding dense but those figures, are they total losses all over Europe? Also the JG, if my understand is correct, is essentially the RAF "Wing"/USAAF "Group" correct?

Yes, it is total losses to the operational and training units of the Jagdwaffe, although the number ohne Feindeinwerkung is just for the operational units. Jagdgeschwader or JG was equivalent to a British Wing or US Group. The JG was comprised usually of three Jagdgruppen or JGr, which were also independent. They are equivalent to the US squadron. The JGr was comprised usually of three Staffeln, equivalent to the US Flight or British Squadron

Cheers

[Meyer]

German fighter production, from "Luftwaffe, Strategy for Defeat"

June 43: 772 (663 Bf109, 109 Fw190)
July 43: 873 (704 Bf109, 169 Fw190)
August 43: 674 (515 Bf109, 159 Fw190)
September 43: 682 (525 Bf109, 167 Fw190)
October 43: 683 (556 Bf109, 127 Fw190)
November 43: 576 (472 Bf109, 114 Fw190)
December 43: 663 (350 Bf109, 313 Fw190)

From http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/RLM/RLM44.html

January 44: 1315 (932 Bf109, 383 Fw190) including 67 jabo/ground attack (G-F versions) Fw's
February 44: 1016 (715 Bf109, 301 Fw190) including 16 recce (G-8) 109's, and 109 jabo/ground attack Fw's
March 44: 1377 (804 Bf109, 573 Fw190) including 57 recce 109's and 270 (!) jabo/ground attack Fw's

This is all I have

Now, for the 1943 figures, Williamson Murray includes (I'm pretty sure) all kinds of versions.
And, also it has to be considered that not all "jäger" versions went to the fighter units (for example, some SG units recieved some Fw-190As)

[ljadw]

German fighter production, from "Luftwaffe, Strategy for Defeat"

June 43: 772 (663 Bf109, 109 Fw190)
July 43: 873 (704 Bf109, 169 Fw190)
August 43: 674 (515 Bf109, 159 Fw190)
September 43: 682 (525 Bf109, 167 Fw190)
October 43: 683 (556 Bf109, 127 Fw190)
November 43: 576 (472 Bf109, 114 Fw190)
December 43: 663 (350 Bf109, 313 Fw190)

From http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/RLM/RLM44.html

January 44: 1315 (932 Bf109, 383 Fw190) including 67 jabo/ground attack (G-F versions) Fw's
February 44: 1016 (715 Bf109, 301 Fw190) including 16 recce (G-8) 109's, and 109 jabo/ground attack Fw's
March 44: 1377 (804 Bf109, 573 Fw190) including 57 recce 109's and 270 (!) jabo/ground attack Fw's

This is all I have

Now, for the 1943 figures, Williamson Murray's includes (I'm pretty sure) all kinds of versions.
And, also it has to be considered that not all "jäger" versions went to the fighter units (for example, some SG units recieved some Fw-190As)

Single-engine fighters month (1944) Me 1O9 Fw 190 Tota