Comparative air force performance & a/c production

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ljadw
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Re: Comparative air force performance & a/c production

Post by ljadw » 24 Feb 2010 20:25

Stupid me
Single-engine fighters Month(1944) Me 109 Fw 190 Total
february 905 209 1114
march 934 373 1307
april 1011 461 1472
may 1278 482 1760
june 1603 689 2292

Twin-engined fighters month (1944) Me 110-140 Ju 88 Do 217 He 219 Total
february 125 92 5 5 227
march 226 85 19 11 341
april 340 185 25 24 574
may 365 241 8 13 627
june 335 271 15 15 636

Source :The Luftwaffe War diaries (C. Bekker )P 350

Meyer
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Re: Comparative air force performance & a/c production

Post by Meyer » 24 Feb 2010 20:47

Thanks ljadw. There are some differences, but overall are pretty similar figures.
Now, according to this numbers, for the first half of 1944, the German industry produced about 9200 Bf109 and Fw190. I don't have the figures for the other six months, but the wikipedia number for 1944, 20300, looks very credible.

Adding the Rich's numbers for "durch Feindinwirkung" and "ohne Feindinwirkung", the result is 13678 losses, for the fighter units. Of course, this includes a small number of other aircraft other than 109's and 190's, but I'm sure that would represent less than 10%, maybe a lot less.
We are missing here the "Überholung" (tahnks Rich :P ) category, and also the losses of other units operating 109/190 aircraft. This is crucial to solve the "mistery" :D
Anyway, I don't see the thousands and thousands of fighters waiting for pilots here.

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Re: Comparative air force performance & a/c production

Post by Jon G. » 24 Feb 2010 21:19


Meyer
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Re: Comparative air force performance & a/c production

Post by Meyer » 24 Feb 2010 21:48

Thanks Jon, I forgot about sturmvogel.
Not sure what the " exvi-1" means. Too high numbers...

I wanna make a correction, the "20300" figure from Wiki does not include the Fw190 ground attack versions, that would be 4279 more Fw's.
It is interesting notice that, in 1944, more than 33% of the Fw production was not of the fighter types.

RichTO90
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Re: Comparative air force performance & a/c production

Post by RichTO90 » 24 Feb 2010 23:27



Um, Jon? Slight problem. Those figures are for airframe weight produced, not for number of aircraft produced. :D

BTW, Jason Long is an old, old buddy of mine.
Last edited by RichTO90 on 25 Feb 2010 04:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Guaporense
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Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by Guaporense » 25 Feb 2010 04:01

RichTO90 wrote:Oddly enough, I thought this guy's original argument was that the Germans were just so darned efficient compared to those lackadaisical allies?
No, it wasn't. My argument was simply that the loss of air superiority in 1944 was not due to lack of combat aircraft production but due to lack of strategic planning, pilots and fuel.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by RichTO90 » 25 Feb 2010 04:18

Guaporense wrote:No, it wasn't.
Oh, I see. You mean all the pages you have been expending talking about how efficient the Germans were compared to the inefficient Allies was just meant to put us all asleep? Clever.
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RichTO90
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Re: Comparative air force performance & a/c production

Post by RichTO90 » 25 Feb 2010 04:53

Meyer wrote:Thanks ljadw. There are some differences, but overall are pretty similar figures.
Now, according to this numbers, for the first half of 1944, the German industry produced about 9200 Bf109 and Fw190. I don't have the figures for the other six months, but the wikipedia number for 1944, 20300, looks very credible.
14,212 Bf109 and 11,141 Fw190.
Adding the Rich's numbers for "durch Feindinwirkung" and "ohne Feindinwirkung", the result is 13678 losses, for the fighter units. Of course, this includes a small number of other aircraft other than 109's and 190's, but I'm sure that would represent less than 10%, maybe a lot less.
It includes 6 Me163 lost to enemy action and 9 not to enemy action and 8 Me262 and 1 Bf110 not to enemey action, but that's about it.
We are missing here the "Überholung" (tahnks Rich :P ) category, and also the losses of other units operating 109/190 aircraft. This is crucial to solve the "mistery" :D
Anyway, I don't see the thousands and thousands of fighters waiting for pilots here.
At least 798 Fw190 were lost to enemy action in the various Schlachtgruppen and another 812 not to enemy action during 1944.

For JG 1 alone 408 were returned for overhaul during the year, while 214 were returned from repair, so a net deficiet of 194 more. For that single Geschwader over 1,000 aircraft were lost to the unit through enemy action, accidents, or returns for overhaul, during the year. The 20+ odd Geschwadern equivalents had a requirement of nominally 3,000+ aircraft as well for their regular establishment.

So no, there likely weren't thousands just lazying about, but there were probably some hundreds at least at any one time and quite possibly a thousand or more.
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bf109 emil
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Re: Comparative air force performance & a/c production

Post by bf109 emil » 25 Feb 2010 11:26

So no, there likely weren't thousands just lazying about, but there were probably some hundreds at least at any one time and quite possibly a thousand or more.
Rich this makes sense, as an airforce does not take every single plane available into combat, but rather has a reputable number of spare aircraft ready and available to make good losses and ensure units are kept operational or at a 100% combat readiness, thus forcing an X number of aircraft to be "just laying about" in order to fill losses through damaged or downed aircraft.

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Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by The_Enigma » 25 Feb 2010 11:28

Guaporense wrote:
RichTO90 wrote:Oddly enough, I thought this guy's original argument was that the Germans were just so darned efficient compared to those lackadaisical allies?
No, it wasn't. My argument was simply that the loss of air superiority in 1944 was not due to lack of combat aircraft production but due to lack of strategic planning, pilots and fuel.
So the RAF and USAAF, not to mention the effect of the VVS and various CW formations, had nothing to do with it?

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Re: Comparative air force performance & a/c production

Post by takata_1940 » 25 Feb 2010 15:06

RichTO90 wrote:
Jon G. wrote:Much good Luftwaffe data can be found here. Once you've found the unit you're interested in, click on the unit page and scroll down to the bottom of the page to find the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen for the unit in question.
Yep. And when you go through the time and trouble to create Excel spreadsheets from the figures you can post figures for the actual combat losses reported by the operational units rather than guesses based upon fragmentary data and rather odd assumptions about how the world works...I'm still trying to figure out what "13%" has to do with anything... :P :wink: :lol:
I used Michael Holm's data (a long time ago) to make some stats about the aircraft turnover in Luftwaffe's combat formations. I still have this spreadsheet and tables.

Here is a table for january 1944 fighters:
Luft0144.jpg
. The black column is the total on hand at the begining of the month;
. The blue column is the total of new aircraft (NF) delivered from factory to fighter combat units;
. The red column is the total losses (L/1=combat + L/2=non combat);
. R/2 and R/3 are respectivelly the aircraft recieved from repairs and from other units;
. L/3 and L/4 are respectivelly the aircraft lost to repairs and to other units;
. Column L/NF gives the monthly ratio of losses to production delivered (84 percent here);
. Column L/Tot gives the monthly ratio of losses to the number of aircraft on hand (42 percent here).

Here is for february:
Luft0244.jpg
I can post the other following monthly tables for 1944 if one ask for them.
S~
Olivier
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Jon G.
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Re: Comparative air force performance & a/c production

Post by Jon G. » 25 Feb 2010 15:16

RichTO90 wrote:


Um, Jon? Slight problem. Those figures are for airframe weight produced, not for number of aircraft produced. :D
Silly me :oops: I meant to link to another table and got lost in internet addresses in the process. Anyhow, my link to Sturmvogel (and also to Michael Holm's site, upthread) were intended to show that you can actually find fairly good, fairly solid data on LW losses and a/c production out on the interweb, without having to make guesses or extrapolations from secondary sources.
BTW, Jason Long is an old, old buddy of mine.
Give him my regards! I've used his site extensively before :)

Here is the table I wanted to post, broken into two parts due to width:

Image
Image

...both images courtesy of Sturmvogel.

RichTO90
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Re: Comparative air force performance & a/c production

Post by RichTO90 » 25 Feb 2010 15:21

takata_1940 wrote:I can post the other following monthly tables for 1944 if one ask for them.
S~
Olivier
Magnifique! Your Excl skills are much greater than mine young Padawan. :lol: I wish I was better a linking worksheets like that. What's the secret?

Anyway, yes, please, I would be interested in seeing the other months.
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RichTO90
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Re: Comparative air force performance & a/c production

Post by RichTO90 » 25 Feb 2010 15:33

Jon G. wrote:Anyhow, my link to Sturmvogel (and also to Michael Holm's site, upthread) were intended to show that you can actually find fairly good, fairly solid data on LW losses and a/c production out on the interweb, without having to make guesses or extrapolations from secondary sources.
Yeah, but it's just so MUCH FUN watching some of these people go round the twist with their convoluted notions of reality and cause and effect... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Give him my regards! I've used his site extensively before :).
I haven't talked to him in some while...probably a good 20 years as far as actual "talking" goes in fact. His two sites are very good, but he hasn't updated them in some time. Luckily there are archived versions about that preserve most of the links.

Of course too, if you want some of the stuff "from the horses mouth" you can reference quite a bit of the von Rohden collection from the USAFRA www.afhra.af.mil/ as well as quite a good collection of printed sources at the USAF History Support Office www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.

takata_1940
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Re: Comparative air force performance & a/c production

Post by takata_1940 » 25 Feb 2010 15:48

RichTO90 wrote:Magnifique! Your Excl skills are much greater than mine young Padawan. :lol: I wish I was better a linking worksheets like that. What's the secret?
Patience maybe?
:-)

Here is a recap table for the whole fighter units;
luft44.jpg
[I'll look later into the datasheet to list all the units I used to build the table.]

S~
Olivier
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