Rhineland occupation questions

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The_Enigma
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Rhineland occupation questions

Post by The_Enigma » 24 Jun 2010 20:37

Rhineland Occupation zones 1923

From bits and bobs i have read over the years, the French actions against the German population of their occupation zones of the Rhineland, including murder, seem to get raised quite a bit when it comes down to the Entente occupation. The French seem to be labelled somewhat, that they seem to be categorised as being rather harsh occupiers. However was the French occupation that bad, or was it isolated incidents (and, perhaps in some respects, getting blown out of proportion?)?

Understandable, considering the size of the zone that he French gets the attention however were the Belgians and British just as bad? Somewhat off topic (yes, in my own topic and the initial post!), but why the tiny British zone and the shared Belgian one?

Do we know what the general German view was of the various occuping forces? One would assume not that nice considering the lost war and an occupation force but on the whole?

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Systemic Looting

Post by Dave Bender » 25 Jun 2010 13:41

It wasn't just an occupation. Major companies in the region like Krupp were systemically looted of coal, machine tools, patents and anything else of value that could be carted away. Shipyards like Blohm & Voss were forced to complete vessels (SS Bismarck for instance) and hand the completed ship over to Britain or France. Factory workers at Krupp (and probably other places as well) conducted a low scale guerilla war against the French occupation.

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The_Enigma
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Re: Rhineland occupation questions

Post by The_Enigma » 25 Jun 2010 13:54

Would have this come under the terms of the TOV and the reperations?

In what sense did the Germans works at Krupp confuct a "guerilla war"; sabotage what they produced, killed French soldiers?

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Krupp confuct a "guerilla war"

Post by Dave Bender » 25 Jun 2010 20:32

March 31, 1923
A French infanry squad opened fire on a group of Krupp workers. 6 workers were killed and another 30 were wounded. This was the first major incident. Later that day several French soldiers were beaten and robbed. One of the Essen bridges used by French troops was blown up.

After that sniper and grenade attacks on French soldiers were frequent. Lone French soldiers did not dare move about the Ruhr.

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Re: Systemic Looting

Post by Okyzm » 26 Jun 2010 01:58

Dave Bender wrote:It wasn't just an occupation. Major companies in the region like Krupp were systemically looted of coal, machine tools, patents and anything else of value that could be carted away.
Interesting. Was by any chance the coal and machinary by any chance part of the loot Germany took from Congress Poland and other parts of Russian Empire in WW1?

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Re: Systemic Looting

Post by Baltasar » 26 Jun 2010 10:52

Okyzm wrote:
Dave Bender wrote:It wasn't just an occupation. Major companies in the region like Krupp were systemically looted of coal, machine tools, patents and anything else of value that could be carted away.
Interesting. Was by any chance the coal and machinary by any chance part of the loot Germany took from Congress Poland and other parts of Russian Empire in WW1?
Interesting to see you trying to derail yet another thread. Where would your questions come into play here? Did the French return those things to either Poland or Russia? If not, why not?

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Re: Rhineland occupation questions

Post by Okyzm » 27 Jun 2010 17:47

Did the French return those things to either Poland or Russia? If not, why not?
Obviously the Russian Empire from which Germany plundered machinery, money and natural resources was no longer in existance.

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Re: Rhineland occupation questions

Post by Baltasar » 27 Jun 2010 18:14

Such small fact did not stop you from using equally dead countries like Poland. Russia at least had an immediate successor state.

Yet again, your general hatred towards everything German is too obvious.

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Re: Rhineland occupation questions

Post by abstonecipher » 30 Jan 2011 02:47

I am new to this forum and hope I don't offend too many with my lack of knowledge about WW11. I have been listening to a lot of family history lately though. My mother (German) recently told me a story about French officers. Her grandfather owned a butcher shop and small restaurant in Andernach am Rhine. Three French officers came to the house and demanded her grandfather give them three rooms. He refused but they went upstairs and through the house anyway. When they came back downstairs they were furious about a picture hanging on the wall upstairs of my gr-grandfather and Kaiser WilhelmII and about 30 more young men (all the same height with handlebar moustaches). The family story is that gr-grandfather was a personal bodyguard to the Kaiser when he was young. The French officers pistol whipped gr-grandfather before leaving. They didn't get their rooms. I don't know if he particularly hated the French, but I do know he hated Hitler. I assume being a bodyguard for the Kaiser gave him a different perspective than the average German citizen.

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Re: Rhineland occupation questions

Post by aues_ghueder » 26 Feb 2011 16:08

I remember my history professor from long ago said that Ex-Freikorps members conducted actions against "collaborators" with the French (and murdered them) and if I am correct, rail lines were blown up as well to stop the roll goods being removed from Germany as reparations.

as far as local attitudes...

I have read a couple of times that treatment was much better under the British. But even the British and Americans took advantage of the inflation to live like kings which made a very bad impression on local people who were in a desperate situation.

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Re: Rhineland occupation questions

Post by tigre » 21 Jan 2020 14:12

Hello to all :D; a complement.................................

British soldiers in the Rhineland, 1918-1929.

Between December 1, 1918 and December 12, 1929 over 300,000 British and British Empire troops served in the British Army of Occupation in Germany. There were three main phases of the eleven-year occupation: from the beginning of December 1918 until early 1919 covering the immediate circumstances of the Allied march into Germany and the beginning of the occupation; then to January 1920, when the possibility remained that the forces in Germany might have to be used to compel German acceptance of the Allied peace terms; and finally after 10 January 1920, when the Treaty of Versailles was ratified, the Inter-Allied Rhineland High Commission inaugurated and civil control of Occupied Germany established.

On December 1, 1918 Allied troops began to cross the German frontier. The British made a particular effort to include any men—“they were not many”—who had arrived in France in 1914, and to ensure that Dominion troops—Canadian, Newfoundland, New Zealand, Australian, and South African—were among the first to cross the frontier. By December 9, British troops had reached the Rhine and by December 13, completed the occupation of an area of approximately a thousand square miles of German territory west of the Rhine, as well as the chief Rhineland city of Cologne and a “Cologne Bridgehead,” extending some ten miles or so east of the city. The area contained about 1,400,000 inhabitants, of whom 600,000 lived in Cologne. To the north and west was the Belgian area of occupation, and to the south, the American and French areas.

Sources: “HUT AB,” “PROMENADE WITH KAMERADE FOR SCHOKOLADE,” AND THE FLYING DUTCHMAN: BRITISH SOLDIERS IN THE RHINELAND, 1918–1929. Keith Jeffery
With the British Army of Occupation of the Rhine: Official picturesof Scenes in Cologne. The Sphere, April 1919.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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Leibstandarte_fi
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Re: Rhineland occupation questions

Post by Leibstandarte_fi » 26 Jan 2020 13:56

Let the Germany be The Germany aka Deutchland.
There are many problematic areas!!!
Rheinland
Sleesia
Danzig

I'am not German, but I can see the points of future conflicts in Europe!!

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tigre
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Re: Rhineland occupation questions

Post by tigre » 28 Jan 2020 13:06

Hello to all :D; more.................................

British soldiers in the Rhineland, 1918-1929.

The 2nd and 4th British Armies were selected to advance and were to begin on November 17, 1918. In total they would consist of 16 Divisions in four Corps (of the British total at that time in Europe of 61 and 16), along with the appropriate cavalry, aerial means and extended lines of communication. Only the 2nd Army, under Lieutenant General Sir Herbert Plumer, was to enter Germany.

The movement of a very large force presented a considerable challenge to the transport and logistics of the army, especially in the need to take over, repair or build railroads that could supply the force. The rapid advances made in the last days of the fight meant that the supply railroad heads were already about 20-35 miles behind the more advanced troops. The quartermaster general confirmed on November 18 that there would be no difficulties in supplying up to Line No.1, but that new railroad heads would need to be established to support the movements beyond that. But the events showed that even by November 21 the extensions contemplated were not ready, and instead of being able to go to Line No. 2 according to the schedule, the force stopped at an intermediate line through Namur. Marshal Foch issued an order to all Allied troops on November 15, 1918 to ensure that the troops maintained intelligence and marching discipline.

A formal entry, accompanied by civic receptions and celebrations, was held in Mons (Plumer) on November 15; Charleroi (Rawlinson) five days later; and Brussels (a compound battalion led by Brigadier General Freyberg, accompanied by Albert, king of the Belgians) on November 22, 1918.

Plumer gave orders for the II Corps (Jacob) and the Canadian Corps (Currie), with the 1st Cavalry Division (Mullens) attached, to cross the German border on December 1, 1918. They had to reach the Rhine seven days later and cross it, to occupy the bridgehead of Cologne on December 13.

The VI Corps (Haldane) and the IX Corps (Braithwaite) were to follow later and take positions as a reserve west of the Rhine. The advance across the border began at 05:00 am on December 1, 1918 , headed by the 1st Cavalry Division with the 17th Armored Vehicles Battalion, and the 5th Cavalry Brigade of the 2nd Cavalry Division. The men who had arrived in France in 1914 were put at the forefront to have the honor of being the first to cross into Germany.

Sources: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles ... the-rhine/
https://picclick.com/1918-Occupied-Rhin ... id=1&pid=1

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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Re: Rhineland occupation questions

Post by henryk » 28 Jan 2020 20:37

U.S. Army of Occupation in Koblenz, Germany

The US Army Occupation was between 1918 and 1923, headquartered in the Ehrenbreitstein Fortress in Koblenz. When I visited about 1980, there was an exhibit on the occupation, in the Fortress.
http://www.uniforms-4u.com/p-wwi-occupa ... 12513.aspx
ARMY OF OCCUPATION OF GERMANY - WORLD WAR I

More than twenty years elapsed from the time that American Soldiers began serving as an occupation force in Germany following the end of World War I and the establishment of the Army of Occupation of Germany Medal by an Act of Congress on November 21, 1941.

The United States Third Army received orders to advance into Germany on November 15, 1918 to serve as an occupying force, disarming and disbanding any German troops it encountered. By mid-December, it had reached its destination at Koblenz; it had faced no opposition during its advance and would continue to be welcomed by the German citizenry for the duration of is service. This amicability stood in stark contrast to the reception received by French soldiers, who had suffered four years of warfare in their own country and felt little or no compassion for the German civilian population.

By April, 1919, the situation in the areas occupied by Third Army was well-ordered and peaceful, and divisions began to be shipped stateside. On July 2, 1919, Third Army was disbanded as an operational unit; its headquarters and personnel remained in Germany as the American Forces in Germany for three more years. During that time, the United States signed its own peace treaty with Germany, having rejected the harsh reparations and other vindictive clauses of the Versailles Treaty.

The Army of Occupation of German – World War I Medal features on its obverse a profile image of General John J. Pershing, the four-star General who commanded the American Expeditionary Force and was eventually named “General of the Armies,” a designation that was held by just one other General in U.S. military history: George Washington. Also on the obverse are the start and end dates of the occupation, 1918 and 1923, and four stars indicating Pershing’s rank. On the reverse is an eagle perched on Ehrenbreitstein Fortress, which served as the Headquarters for U.S. occupation forces.

Authorized for acceptance and wear by members of all branches of the U.S. Military, the Army of Occupation of Germany Medal was awarded for military service with U.S. occupation forces in Germany, Austria, or Hungary between the dates of 12 November 1918 and 11 July 1923. Any members of the Navy or Marine Corps that were attached or assigned to U.S. Army units in those countries were also eligible.
Pictures from the Occupsation:
http://2nd-division.com/_div.misc/occup ... oblenz.htm

Other information:
https://raycityhistory.wordpress.com/20 ... -fortress/

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