Did Hitler survive?

[phylo_roadking]

Wenty, think very carefully...

Why did Hitler require a body double to be present at the Chancellery when he had made his last public appearance ten days earlier? Surely he wasn't planning on going out anywhere he was going to be needing a double in the last few days of April 1945....in fact, he had rarely been sighted at all in the months leading up to that, for obvious reasons.

I think this dead doppelganger is often overlooked by people.

..where exactly was someone who was very very much like Hitler, enough so to act as a double in public, going to go in the middle of the Battle of Berlin??? He's hardly going to walk up to the nearest Red Army unit and ask to be let through...

Don't forget how few people made it out of the Chancellery in those last few days...

How did Hitler know he wouldn't need a body double again until that famous scene, reinterpreted so many times in the Youtube era, when the very very last deluded hope of the city being relieved vanished?

What's disastrously sad for him is it probably wasn't a Soviet bullet that killed him

[genstab]

There is a book titled "The Death of Hitler" by Ada Petrova and Peter Watson. It has photos of his jawbone as preserved in Moscow. It has been positively identified as Hitler's from his dental records.

[phylo_roadking]

...and also IIRC a lot of the forensic material from the Hitler's "Death" file prepared for Stalin.

[wenty]

Hi all,

Sandeep:

Unfortunately I am not an expert in psychology or any behaviour profession, as you are. Therefore, I can only offer my own, non-professional thoughts on different topics relating to Hitler's possible escape. Also, it has been a VERY long time since I actually looked at this theory in any depth because my life has been consumed with work and university and more pressing concerns, so I wouldn't be able to give you the information you were looking for in any case.

If you want a much more in depth discussion about the reasons Hitler could have escaped, I strongly advise you (and others on this thread) to visit here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 95#p209376

Sadly the thread is locked now but I see that i've made 124 posts to that topic and argued for and against quite a few things on there - that should keep you occupied for a while, as I made most of those posts when the ideas were a lot more fresh in my mind than they are these days.

Let me also be clear that I don't believe in any of these wild theories like Hitler living to be 100 in Argentina or something. He was not a well man and would be very unlikely to have lived for more than a couple of years longer anyway.

Phylo:

Well, exactly, that's my point and thanks for arguing it for me. Why did the doppelganger need to be in the chancellery in the first place? Hitler barely made public appearances at all by 1945, and his last one was a full ten days before his death. So why did the doppelganger still need to be held there? Clearly he was killed, but why? Couldn't he just change his appearance? Did he know something? Don't get me wrong, i'm not reading anything sinister into it in regards to trying to trick the Russians that this was the real Hitler or anything like that, but it is a curious case which deserves more attention.

Cheers,
Adam.

[phylo_roadking]

Well, exactly, that's my point and thanks for arguing it for me. Why did the doppelganger need to be in the chancellery in the first place? Hitler barely made public appearances at all by 1945, and his last one was a full ten days before his death.

Adam - exactly where else was someone who looked like Hitler going to go?

So why did the doppelganger still need to be held there

Er...to disguise the fact that Hitler HAD a body double IF the Fuhrer decided to leave Berlin??? Remember, right up until three days begfore the end people were still pressuring him to leave. Which means he must have given the impression to those around him who knew him best that he was vacillating. He doesn't seem to have actually finally made his mind up until the last time he refused Hanna Reitsch and Ritter von Griem; his last refusal to her is far more definite than his first, on their arrival in Berlin..

Clearly he was killed, but why? Couldn't he just change his appearance?

Such as???

Did he know something?

Yes - that he wasn't Hitler!

Don't get me wrong, i'm not reading anything sinister into it in regards to trying to trick the Russians that this was the real Hitler or anything like that, but it is a curious case which deserves more attention.

Not really - when you take into account all the other partly-disfigured bodies dressed in bits and bobs of his uniforms that the Soviets found...and the fact that he had publically stated that he didn't want the Soviets to get his body. What's "unforatunate" is that better preparations weren't amde ina dvance for the disposal of his biody. It's actually quite hard to incinerate a human body.

[J. Duncan]

This topic is for the writers of fictional novels....Hitler died at 3pm, 30th of April 1945.
Why didn't these people write about a factual escape such as Ante Pavelic's? A good book on this subject is way overdue. Pavelic was a strutting mini-Fuehrer who butchered a lot of people in Croatia and escaped to Argentina. Now here was story they could have written about which is founded in REALITY.
To waste all this effort and paper on a phantom is simply beyond comprehension. Even Peter Levenda is chasing ghosts - only his escape fantasy leads to some guy named Dr. Poch in Indonesia.

[phylo_roadking]

Even Peter Levenda is chasing ghosts - only his escape fantasy leads to some guy named Dr. Poch in Indonesia.

In fact - you could say he REALLY screwed the poch...









I thank you, I'm here all week - don't forget to tip your waitress...

[genstab]

Then there's the Bormann saga- people thought he escaped also when his body had been lying under rubble in Berlin since May 1945 but not discovered until the 1970s.

[J. Duncan]

A lot of these Hitler survival books keep using that awful Paul Manning book ("Martin Bormann in Exile") as a source.
Manning even goes so far as to say Bormann had secret dealings with American mobsters. When we had the dialogue with Mr. Gerard Williams (?)in the thread on his book, the first source he mentioned in chapter 1 was Manning! Any book using Manning as a source is a red flag for "bogus".

[Sid Guttridge]

It is entirely immaterial whether Hitler survived or not.

(1) He would certainly be dead by now through old age.

and

(2) He achieved absolutely no profile or observable impact in any presumed post-1945 existence.

The most likely explanation for (2) is that he died in 1945. No other explanation is even remotely likely.

Cheers,

Sid.

[wenty]

Phylo:

Where a Hitler doppelganger was going to go is immaterial. My question is: WHY was he still there at the very end of the war? Considering Hitler had made virtually no public appearances for a considerable amount of time, and was hardly likely to start doing so from April 30th onwards, why was a doppelganger still in the chancellery? Other members here have pointed out that Hitler had numerous doppelgangers, and indeed he did - but clearly those others had been released and/or were not required, so what was special about this one? (IIRC, his name is known but I can't recall it off the top of my head)

Hitler stated very early on that he would not leave Berlin. See, even you're admitting now a possibility that Hitler might have chosen to escape. But even though I believe he could have done, it's apparent that he had no use for that doppelganger, isn't it? He wasn't cremated, he wasn't in the chancellery, and even the Russians took little time to realise that this wasn't THE genuine Hitler - he wasn't that close to him in appearance at all, look at the photo.

Have you (and others) actually bothered to have a glance at any of the other threads that i've mentioned and linked, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Because if it's the latter, i'm really not interested.

Sid:

I agree with all but your conclusion - IF Hitler escaped (and again, i'm not stating that it's a definitely acknowledged fact, just advocating the possibility) he would not have lived for very long afterwards, and clearly he was not successful in any moves he may have made to regain some sort of power. Indeed it's unlikely that he would have thought that was even possible, but we know that he was having some pretty quirky thoughts towards the end of the war, so you can never be sure....

Cheers,
Adam.

[genstab]

As regards Heinrich "Gestapo" Mueller, he too was rumored to have survived. I even read an ad for a book purportedly written by him as a "guest" of the American government with his observations on the American political scene in the Truman years! Some people will buy anything. From what I can see online, his body probably was found in Berlin in 1945 and reburied, possibly in a former Jewish cemetery!

Best,
Bill in Cleveland

[phylo_roadking]

Where a Hitler doppelganger was going to go is immaterial. My question is: WHY was he still there at the very end of the war? Considering Hitler had made virtually no public appearances for a considerable amount of time, and was hardly likely to start doing so from April 30th onwards, why was a doppelganger still in the chancellery? Other members here have pointed out that Hitler had numerous doppelgangers, and indeed he did - but clearly those others had been released and/or were not required, so what was special about this one? (IIRC, his name is known but I can't recall it off the top of my head)

Adam - you've answered your own question. Hitler's body double was in the Chancellery because that's where Hitler's body double was SUPPOSED to be.

The question of where he was supposed to go is not immaterial...as long as you don't grasp that he was exactly where he was supposed to be. Do you think he had a choice??? How exactly whas he supposed to walk through the SS security detail at ther Chancellery and take off into the middle of The Battle of Berlin?

Have you (and others) actually bothered to have a glance at any of the other threads that i've mentioned and linked, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Because if it's the latter, i'm really not interested.

Yes...and I also know a LOT more about this than you obviously do. That's not a cheeky answer - just a statement of truth. For example - you could pay some attention to the major discrepanices in statements between the various "witnesses" in Soviet hands after VE Day to events in and outside the Bunker...and the discrepancies among the various witnesses in Allied hands As they say "no two people see the same thing" in relation to crimes and major events etc.. - but some of the discrepancies are very odd and very major...

And it doesn't help that some of them later, privately....changed their stories entirely! Like Linge.

Hitler stated very early on that he would not leave Berlin. See, even you're admitting now a possibility that Hitler might have chosen to escape.

No. I'm noting that a large number of those around him wanted him to leave if possible - and there were times when Hitler's firmness of mind on that seemed to waiver...to those around him. Not necessarily to Hitler.

But even though I believe he could have done, it's apparent that he had no use for that doppelganger, isn't it?

Didn't he??? I think it's patently obvious that there was one last use for the body double If not necessarily by Hitler...

He wasn't cremated, he wasn't in the chancellery, ...

Actually - that's where he was found IIRC.

...and even the Russians took little time to realise that this wasn't THE genuine Hitler - he wasn't that close to him in appearance at all, look at the photo.

1/ death changes us all The face sags, loses tension etc.

2/ The Russians ALSO had to contend with all the nother Hitler fakes found in the Bunker and Chancellery.

3/ there seems to have been some division of responsibility...unintentional...that sprung up. The Red Army (reporting to Zhukov) searched the Bunker etc. - but it was the SMERSH investigative team that took possession of the cremated bodies and carried out the autopsy and investigation into Hitler's last days for Stalin. As a result of that...

4/ ...what's clear is that there was some considerable delay on the part of Zhukov and the Red Army at issuing any sort of a final opinion on the matter; as late as the end of may, Zhukov was telling Western journalists that the Red Army was still turning up Hitler bodies in the Bunker!

and of course -

5/ that photo has been fooling the stupid, the gullible and the conspiracy theorists for decades!

[Annelie]

Why is it in all the books published about those last days in the bunker
including the film no one has ever mentioned Hitler's doubles?

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi Annelie...Hitler's double was mentioned in The Bunker by Peter O'Donnell. He mentioned that the soviets were initially a bit confused when they discovered the body of someone who looked like Hitler. But they soon wrote him off when they found that he was wearing a pair of darned socks ..
Ciao
Sandeep!