Did Hitler survive?

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1186

Post by phylo_roadking » 25 Nov 2014, 21:13

Hi Phylo_Roadking...

Largely agree with you but for some details as under :

[*] It wasnt Hans Baur but Otto Gunsche who asked for 200 litres for petrol to be brought from the chancellery garage ( Erik Kempka was sent for this). He could fetch about 180 litres and not 50...

You are perhaps confusing this with the Goebbels' funeral? In the case of the Goebbels couple, a relatively small quantity ( maybe 50 lit) was brought.
I'll have to check again...but IIRC there are questionmarks over a number of the witnesses' statements, and I think Guensche's was worst of all. Questionmarks in the sense that things they said were not corroborated by others', and those versions were in turn corroborated!

Linge's statements for example; questioned SO many times 1945-6.....then AGAIN across a total of 18 months in 1947-8! And a lot of what we "know" depends on that material...including wrapping the body and IIRC him carrying it out of the Bunker (I'll have to check on that again)...

...and yet, in POW camp in 1945 between interrogations, he confided to another witness...the Wehrmacht surgeon-general, Major-General Walter Schreiber...that he "did not see Hitler, but toward the end noticed two bodies wrapped in carpet being carried out of the bunker" - referring to the removal of the body and the funeral! Yet HE was supposed to have carried Hitler's body, according to several witnesses! :lol:
The Hitler couple's bodies were in fact burnt quite substantially, though not completely. The Goebbels' bodies were slightly burnt and the remains of Goebbels was easily identified by the shape of his head.
IIRC the top two thirds of the two bodies traditionally regarded as Hitler's and Braun's were very badly burned...but were still broadly intact and whole when found...although IIRC one of the Fuhrer's legs fell off when the body was lifted!

The point I was making that, given Hitler's previously-stated intentions about wanting his body NOT being found at all, the amount of damage done was far too little. His body was still substantially whole, and certainly enough remained to permit formal identification from his bridgework and jaw no more than 36-48 hours after the autopsy. Which was of course NOT what Der Fuhrer wanted at all! :P

For all their other preparations...noone had the wit to go out and destroy his jaw and teeth with a sledgehammer or anything else handy :P Obviously they thought that the seizing and destruction of his dental records and xrays would be enough...

The Nazis in the Bunker just didn't have the benefits of a modern Television Age education! :D
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 25 Nov 2014, 21:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1187

Post by phylo_roadking » 25 Nov 2014, 21:19

Oh, nearly forgot...
[*] The female skeleton ( rather skull?)was most probably that of Magda Goebbels.
I doubt it. The skull fragement was identified as probably belonging to a woman in ther 20s...and Magda Goebbels was 43 when she died.

Let's face it - with all the fighting and shelling going on in Berlin in April, that skull fragment could have been thrown in from anywhere in the vicinity!
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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1188

Post by phylo_roadking » 25 Nov 2014, 21:46

Just checked; Erich Kempka's statement said that Otto Guensche did indeed tell him to bring five cans of petrol from the garage. If we assume Jerry (sic) cans - that's 20L cans...a potential total of a hundred litres...and that he saw Guensche pour the contents of all five over the corpses...

However, as with all of this, that's not confirmed. Hermann Karnau, the only witness to the last days in the Bunker to fall into British hands in 1945, said that only four jerry cans were brought into the Bunker! So that immediately brings the potential total down to 80 litres :P ...if they were actually full. And there are other details between Kempke's accounts and those of Karnau and Dr Helmut Kunz that bring Kempke's account into question.

See the problems with all this? :lol:

And of course...Otto Guenshe throws EVERYTHING into question. Erich Kempke said Guensche soaked and set fire to the corpses...but Walter Schreiber actually spoke to Guensche in captivity long before he spoke to Linge - and Guensche admitted that he had never seen Hitler's
dead body. He also added the comment "Those things were all done without us"!

And this is actually corroborated! In this case, by General Helmuth Weidling, who told the Soviets at his interrogation on 4 January 1946 that "...after I was taken prisoner, I spoke to SS Gruppenfuehrer Rattenhuber and SS Sturmbannfuehrer Guensche, and both said they knew nothing about the details of Hitler's death."

8O :lol:

(At the IMT, Kempke's account of Hitler's last days rapidly became enshrined as the "official" account...and there's no disagreeing that he was definitely there in the Bunker; several other witnesses saw Kempke there on the day of the funeral. However - there were considerable disagreements between Kempke's and Karnau's acccounts...so much so that Hugh Trevor-Roper came to rely on Kempke's accounts almost solely because it was so complete and covered so many days, and Karnau's much briefer account dropped out of sight for many years.

There's a major problem with Kempke's accounts, though...their reliability. He stood up in Nuremberg and stated under oath that there were no flights into or out of Berlin possible after the 25th or 26th of April 1945, due to the incessant shellfire etc.. Unfortunately - Hanna Reitsch and Ritter von Greim arrived late on the 26th, and flew out on the 29th! And in her autobiography, Reitsch also notes there were two OTHER flights out of Berlin during the three days she was there 8O

Personally - that rather big dollop of bullshit on Kempke's part...he could hardly have failed to know of Reitsch's arrival in the Bunker...and that other accounts we NOW know of, the ones made by witnesses who fell into Soviet hands, ALSO disagree with Kempke on major details - make Kempke's account of events rather suspect for me at least.)
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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1189

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 26 Nov 2014, 05:05

Hi Phylo_Roadking..

Am out of home base now.. travelling.. so cant get my hands on my reference stuff, which are : Trevor - Roper, O'Donnell, Traudl Junge and Beevor largely. But would check and give the low down as soon am back.

The petrol quantity was indeed around 180 lit. They were stored not in the standard issue field jerry cans I think...actually additional cans were fetched later to keep the flames going. I really cant remember off hand at this moment.

Gunsche's account has been corroborated by other bunker personalities and he has been found to be a serious and sober witness, not given to flights of fancy. Kempke had this boastful and colourful streak in him that made him appear a bit suspect in what he sad from time to time. He admitted to O'Donnel decades later ( in the 70s) that he was talking to save his skin in those days ( '45 interrogations).

Weidling never came back from Russia and hence independent corroboration was not possible about what he may or may not have told the Russians. BTW after the surrender Weidling never met Rattenhuber or Gunsche at Berlin. They were captured separately and the SS men ( including Mohnke) captured at he brewery, were held and transported separately, than the Bendlerstrasse crowd.

The soviets were out to prove that Hitler has escaped and was being harboured by the west. So what they let out about the interrogations is suspect. However in '46 they got all the bunker people, in their custody, together and brought them back to the bunker site, to role- play and reconstruct the events concerning Hitler's death and cremation. The different versions matched up apparently.

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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1190

Post by phylo_roadking » 26 Nov 2014, 22:18

Am out of home base now.. travelling.. so cant get my hands on my reference stuff, which are : Trevor - Roper, O'Donnell, Traudl Junge and Beevor largely. But would check and give the low down as soon am back.

The petrol quantity was indeed around 180 lit. They were stored not in the standard issue field jerry cans I think...actually additional cans were fetched later to keep the flames going. I really cant remember off hand at this moment.
Well, if you're relying on Trevor-Roper, and O'Donnell's accounts - then you're going to run up against the problem of Kempke's account specifically saying five cans.. By the way - have you ever carried a 20litre jerrycan??? You really don't want to be trying to carry any more than 20 litres...!
actually additional cans were fetched later to keep the flames going. I really cant remember off hand at this moment
This is interesting - but I've yet to be told how to go about adding petrol to a burning fire without "flashback". I still carry the scars from a mere quarter of a pint of petrol flashing back from a fire.
Gunsche's account has been corroborated by other bunker personalities and he has been found to be a serious and sober witness, not given to flights of fancy.
Exactly. And therefore, if he said he wasn't there...
Kempke had this boastful and colourful streak in him that made him appear a bit suspect in what he sad from time to time. He admitted to O'Donnel decades later ( in the 70s) that he was talking to save his skin in those days ( '45 interrogations).
By then, people had been poking holes in his accounts for 25 years :P He was in Western Allied hands - and they weren't exactly going to hand him over the Soviets!
Weidling never came back from Russia and hence independent corroboration was not possible about what he may or may not have told the Russians. BTW after the surrender Weidling never met Rattenhuber or Gunsche at Berlin. They were captured separately and the SS men ( including Mohnke) captured at he brewery, were held and transported separately, than the Bendlerstrasse crowd.
See Hitler's Death, p.238 P.S. niether his statement, nor my post, says anything about his meeting them in Berlin.

Apart from anything else - as ALL parties to that supposed meeting were or had been in Soviet hands, do you not think the Soviets would have crosschecked? 8O
The soviets were out to prove that Hitler has escaped and was being harboured by the west. So what they let out about the interrogations is suspect.
On the contrary; for "domestic consumption" I.E. Stalin's, they were out to prove he was 100% kaput. For Western consumption they were out to sew discord and paranoia! :P :lol:

Kaethe Heusemann and Fritz Echtmann, Dr. Blaschke's dental technician (the man who actually made the various dental bridges) were repeatedly interrogated over quite protracted periods in May 1945...then Heusemann was re-interrogated in July, 1947...then BOTH were arrested and imprisoned in 1951 - very possibly because of the wide range of inconsistencies in Heusemann's evidence about Eva Braun's dental bridges that made her identification of Hitler's jaw fragment and bridgework suspect. If the Soviets were wanting to prove Hitler was alive...then Kaethe Heusemann's original inconsistencies would have helped confirm this for them...

...thus punishing her (and Echtmann) for mistakes (and possibly lying) when they were trying to confirm if Hitler was dead would indeed by why they were imprisoned - for ten years in the Gulags!
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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1191

Post by wenty » 27 Nov 2014, 10:58

Steve / Adibach:

Just take a look at all the various instances where Hitler had a narrow escape from death, from his early life right through to the final year of his life. He may have felt, in his deluded state, that he was still some sort of God and immortal. I don't think he ever truly accepted defeat, though he was a sick man by 1945, both mentally and physically. As for Goebbels, if Hitler had escaped it may have been a "one shot only" type thing and how could Goebbels justify leaving Berlin and leaving Magda and his six children there for the Soviets to claim? No, either way, Goebbels was there to stay and to die as we know he did.

Sandeep:

Hitler was rarely seen in public in 1945 and Berlin had been encircled for a week by the time he supposedly committed suicide. Only those closest to him were in the chancellery. There was no use for a double any further, especially one who didn't even really look much like Hitler (despite Phylo's protests).

I'd advise googling some information about the "Volkssturm," by April 1945 they were throwing together pretty much anyone who could hold a gun - it didn't matter whether you were 12 or 60, disabled or healthy, militarily trained or not. They were more or less lambs to the slaughter and if there was a double just lounging about in the chancellery, having done a whole lot of nothing for a few weeks/months, then why not send him out? However I should say that is just an example I came up with, it doesn't necessarily need to have been the case - it just strikes me as odd that he was a.) in the Chancellery; and b.) his ultimate fate.

No, there was no Eva double and if Hitler had gone to Spain, he would have been under the protecting of Franco. However, once again - cracked record here - I can only refer you to the past threads where i've gone into this in depth and suggest you try and get hold of the book which i've mentioned on this thread already, and which is where I get a number of my thoughts about a potential Hitler escape from - i've still got no desire to maintain a long-winded argument on this thread about it, and will shortly end my contribution.

Phylo:

Yes, i'm aware of the whole combustion thing - especially outdoors. However, the real Hitler's corpse was very badly damaged. From memory, the remains were exhumed and cremated in around 1970?

Cheers,
Adam.

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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1192

Post by phylo_roadking » 27 Nov 2014, 22:12

Yes, i'm aware of the whole combustion thing - especially outdoors. However, the real Hitler's corpse was very badly damaged.
There was damage to the right hand side of the chest and rib cage...and the left foot was missing...with the rest of the leg apparently detaching when the corpse was lifted. In real period terms - it was certainly not damaged beyond recognition...given that as of 1945 this process would require identification by the teeth/dental records anyway. I doubt Hitler's fingerprints had ever been taken or were on record anywhere, even if the corpse hadn't been superficially burned all over :P

In MODERN forensic terms...the location of the body/bodies, their recovery, and the subsequent SMERSH autopsy, all would have been photographed at every stage to preserve continuity of evidence. However, there's no reason to believe that the bridgework and jaw fragments shown to Kaethe Heusemann weren't the ones removed at autopsy and kept in a cigar box - after all, the said cigar box containing the bridgework has remained in the forensic trail ever since! :D Nowadays every step of the process would be accompnaied by photographs, and every single exhibit marked, bagged, sealed and labelled, and every movement recorded...a process I'm only too familiar with!...but this WAS 1945, a battlefield not a criminal investigation, and Soviet standards of criminal forensics let alone jurisprudence as of 1945 weren't what we are used to :wink:
There was no use for a double any further, especially one who didn't even really look much like Hitler (despite Phylo's protests).
Ahem...given that there are no pictures of Hitler's corpse before it was burned, we have no idea HOW much the two corpses looked or didn't look like each other.
I'd advise googling some information about the "Volkssturm," by April 1945 they were throwing together pretty much anyone who could hold a gun - it didn't matter whether you were 12 or 60, disabled or healthy, militarily trained or not.
Except that's not really the case...around the Chancellery and Bunker. The staffs there remained quite large.
They were more or less lambs to the slaughter and if there was a double just lounging about in the chancellery, having done a whole lot of nothing for a few weeks/months, then why not send him out? However I should say that is just an example I came up with, it doesn't necessarily need to have been the case - it just strikes me as odd that he was a.) in the Chancellery; and b.) his ultimate fate
Who said he was doing nothing? We just don't know what Woller did with his time normally. He could have been a filing clerk in the Chancellery for all we know.

But I can make an educated guess what he was up to after April 22nd...which was the day that Goebbels specifically said that it would be HIS job to ensure that the Soviets didn't find Hitler's corpse. If the poison dwarf had plans afoot from at least then for Hitler's demise - Woller would have been under guard...discreetly or otherwise...after that. Presenting the Soviets with a "dead Hitler" double would be the first layer of any deception plan; sequestering his dental records the second, in an attempt to prevent recognition of EITHER Hitler's body OR Woller's as not being Hitler's....and as a surety, there were all the OTHER bodies found by the Soviets, facially disfigured but wearing odds and ends of Hitler's various uniforms, all neatly labelled with his name :P

And finally...
From memory, the remains were exhumed and cremated in around 1970?
The Russian account is that for some time after being somewhat mobile in the immediate postwar period, the Hitlers' remains settled in one place and remained there undisturbed. They'd spent some time in Poland in various places, and even a period in Kirov in the USSR for some unaccounted-for reason...as the SMERSH unit responsible for the recovery and investigation moved around...before ending up buried along with other remains the SMERSH facility in Magdeburg in East Germany in February 1946, buried together in one of five boxes buried there, the rest of which contained the Goebbels', their children, and Gen. Krebs' remains.

In 1970, this was due to be handed over to the KGB, and rather than be troubled moving them yet again...and to ensure there was no formal "resting place" to be regarded as a shrine...ALL the bodies - or what remained of them were exhumed, macerated - they and the other bodies buried there were noted as being in an advanced state of decay by that time - and finally incinerated and the ashed dumped in a nearby tributary of the Elbe.

Whether or not Stalin ever really accepted the contents of the file(s) and investigations carried out - Yuri Andropov did; it was he, when still KGB Director, who authorised the 1970 exhumation and destruction of the remains.
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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1193

Post by mtobler » 28 Nov 2014, 22:18

I'm going to ADD a little Spice to this conversation :lol:
This video provides yet another alternative theory and explores the possibility that Adolf Hitler's wife may not have died with him down in the bunker that day in 1945. Original broadcast: 1 February 1982.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmKFCMznPtI

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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1194

Post by stellung » 28 Nov 2014, 23:08

Of course Hitler survived. The skull fragment supposedly belonging to Hitler was found to be a woman's after professional examination. The jaw portion the Russians claim to have has only been shown in photographs, the alleged original said to be in some storage area. Stalin was having a conversation with Secretary of State James F. Byrnes and what should have been an obviously settled matter was raised as a question to Stalin regarding whether Hitler was dead or not. Stalin replied that Hitler was not dead but either in Spain or Argentina. Secretary Byrnes recounted this conversation in his book, Speaking Frankly (1947).

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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1195

Post by phylo_roadking » 28 Nov 2014, 23:25

Er no, that only proves the skull fragment wasn't Hitler's....and there was some question over it anyway as it wasn't recovered in 1945, but some time later when Stalin ordered the investigation repeated.
The jaw portion the Russians claim to have has only been shown in photographs
Yes...photographs of the autopsy...
the alleged original said to be in some storage area.
...in the U.S. :P It was part of the material brought to the U.S. several years ago along with the skull fragment, but the jaw bone(s) {two fragments IIRC} were never DNA tested.
Stalin was having a conversation with Secretary of State James F. Byrnes and what should have been an obviously settled matter was raised as a question to Stalin regarding whether Hitler was dead or not. Stalin replied that Hitler was not dead but either in Spain or Argentina. Secretary Byrnes recounted this conversation in his book, Speaking Frankly (1947).
And given that we know the Soviets used the Hitler still alive story to sew dissention mong the Allies...
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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1196

Post by stellung » 28 Nov 2014, 23:43

Your last statement is obviously not based on any facts. The Soviets were our enemies long before the last bullets of World War II were fired. We were simply Allies of convenience. Winston Churchill drew up a study titled Operation Unthinkable since he was concerned that the Russians would sweep across Western Europe and threaten England. He was told that in order for the plan to be workable, elements of the German Army and the Waffen SS would have to be reactivated. His mention of an Iron Curtain having descended over Eastern Europe was not dependent on anything to do with Hitler being alive or not. The British and Americans jointly began overflights of the area in secret to see if Soviet troops and tanks were massing anywhere. There was the additional threat, as published by the Americans, that the Russians had captured examples of the Me-262, Ar-234 and the supersonic DFS-346. They also held Peenemünde and had V-1s and V-2s in their possession.

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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1197

Post by phylo_roadking » 29 Nov 2014, 01:29

stellung wrote:Your last statement is obviously not based on any facts. The Soviets were our enemies long before the last bullets of World War II were fired. We were simply Allies of convenience. Winston Churchill drew up a study titled Operation Unthinkable since he was concerned that the Russians would sweep across Western Europe and threaten England. He was told that in order for the plan to be workable, elements of the German Army and the Waffen SS would have to be reactivated. His mention of an Iron Curtain having descended over Eastern Europe was not dependent on anything to do with Hitler being alive or not. The British and Americans jointly began overflights of the area in secret to see if Soviet troops and tanks were massing anywhere. There was the additional threat, as published by the Americans, that the Russians had captured examples of the Me-262, Ar-234 and the supersonic DFS-346. They also held Peenemünde and had V-1s and V-2s in their possession.
...apart from the fact that you've just proved it, you mean? That the Allies were rapidly falling apart, and not cooperating in a greater degree in public as every day passed? Do you REALLY see, in the environment you've just described, any problem with the Soviets poking fingers in peoples' eyes with the idea that Hitler was alive and well? :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:

...or the minor fact that IIRC it states so, in Hitler's Death, that this was what the Soviets were doing with the "hitler escaped" idea...
They also held Peenemünde and had V-1s and V-2s in their possession.
So??? The Americans did too - and went on to produce large quantities of the V-1 copy, the Loon.
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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1198

Post by Annelie » 29 Nov 2014, 17:38

Hitler had no intentions of suriving...in one of my favourite books The Fall of Berlin by Read and Fisher
page 442

Now that the end had come, now that he had decided to remain in Berlin, "I die with a joyful heart in the knowledge of the immeasurable
deeds and achievements of our peasants and workers and of a contribution unique in history by our youth which bears my name." He reserved some of his bitterest comments for the German officer corps who, unlike himself, "had failed to set a shining example of faithful devotion to duty, unto
death".
page 441

The good news was that part of Wencks XXth Corps had made contact with Reymman's garrison in Potsdam, creating a possible escape route from the centre. Weidling had prepared a plan for this. With his troops providing a protective shield for Hitler, they would drive west along the East-West axis and cross the Havel Bridge at Pichelsdorf, which was still being held b Hitler Youths, to fight their way through to the narrow corridor into the main body of the Twelfth Arny. Hitler thanked him, but refused. He could not take the chance of falling into enemy hands.


there are other instances where one can quote from other sources that Hitler had no intention of surviving the war.

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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1199

Post by wenty » 30 Nov 2014, 02:51

Hi all,

Phylo:

Have you seen the photographs of the REAL Hitler corpse? There wasn't a whole lot left of it that was recognisable, let me tell you. The forensic scene which you describe and the handling of the entire Hitler escape thing by the Russians only adds further fuel to the fire (no pun intended), IMO.

Umm, we have photos of Woller's body, and we have video footage of Hitler from April 20. Compare the two of them and, if you can, describe where the likenesses start and end, if you would? I can't see much resemblance at all besides the moustache and hair. The whole idea of a doppelganger was to fill in for Hitler during public appearances when he could only be seen from a distance so as to narrow the risk of his being attacked / killed. NOT to "be" him at close quarters amongst his own staff.

Yes, the staff at the Chancellery was still quite large although Hitler had dismissed some of his staff - secretaries and what not. But Woller wasn't a valet, was he? Or a cook? Or a messenger? Or an adjutant? Or a military advisor? No, not that i'm aware of. What DID he do while he was there? That's the million dollar question. Fred Mackenzie has some interesting thoughts on that!

Mtobler:

Interesting video, but I don't believe Eva survived Berlin and that isn't part of my theory, just to clarify. The "wedding" was an addition to the illusion of finality, but if either of them escaped, it was almost certainly Hitler alone.

Stellung:

Interesting thoughts, thanks for getting involved! :)

Annelie:

Hitler also told Neville Chamberlain that there would be no more aggression in Europe. :wink:

Cheers,
Adam.

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Re: Did Hitler survive?

#1200

Post by flakbait » 30 Nov 2014, 07:34

Hitler`s GREATEST pathological fear was to be captured alive and to be paraded in a cage before Stalin; to him personally this would have been a FAR worse fate than death. Paradoxically, the complete destruction of Nazi Germany and the fact that so many millions of Germans perished because of his decisions meant utterly NOTHING to him. His mind set reminds me of a supposed quote of Sad(deleted) Insane of Iraq about a month before the start of Operation Desert Storm: "If every Iraqi must die so my rule of Iraq continues, that is acceptable..." He just would NOT allow himself to be taken alive...

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