Did Hitler survive?

[garywdyls]

Yes, just checked. They did do a DNA test on the fragment with the so called bullet hole and the lab in Conneticut USA revealed it to be female.

[imi912]

The possibility of escape from Germany certainly would it, but i believe as they say Hitler committed suicide
Hitler would have been he knew one of the world's most wanted man after the war is over and giving death penalty for sure, on the other hand it is more made a suicide than an international court to make a clown from him and execute him

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Yes, just checked. They did do a DNA test on the fragment with the so called bullet hole and the lab in Conneticut USA revealed it to be female.

It is to be noted that the remains of Magda Goebbels and Eva Braun Hitler were buried in the same area. The shelling churned up the earth often.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Further to my last message, it appears that Hitler did indeed have a double called Gustav Weler. However, the body photographed was not that of Weler, who actually survived the war and was interrogated by the Americans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Weler

Gustav Weler was a doppelgänger (or body-double) of Adolf Hitler. He occasionally stood in for Hitler and was used as a political decoy for security reasons.[1][2]

When Berlin was captured at the end of the Second World War in Europe, it was thought that Weler had been executed by a gunshot to the forehead in an attempt to confuse the Allied troops .[3] When "his" corpse was discovered in the Reich Chancellery garden by Soviet troops, it was mistakenly believed to be that of Hitler because of his identical moustache and haircut. The corpse was also photographed and filmed by the Soviets.[4] However, the British surgeon and historical writer W. Hugh Thomas reported in his 1996 book “Doppelgangers” that Gustav Weler was found alive after the war and that Allied troops interviewed Weler following Hitler’s death.[5] One servant from the bunker declared that the dead man was one of Hitler's cooks. The same servant also surmised Weler "had been assassinated because of his startling likeness to Hitler, while the latter had escaped from the ruins of Berlin".[6]

Hi Michael..

Gustav Weler is generally thought to be the doppelganger whose body was found in the chancellery garden by the Russians. Pic and Video link provided below:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/fHA8wnuUaQQ/hqdefault.jpg

weler.jpg (7.34 KiB) Viewed 10667 times

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJL1P7D2wa0 (video link)

The authority quoted by the Wiki aticke is W. Hugh Thomas. Now this gentleman's agenda is to prove that the entire Hitler suicide story is rigged. He goes to elaborate lengths to prove / disprove things about the fate of the Nazi leaders.. Some of it based on genuine facts and discoveries. However the way he links the various facts and his ultimate analysis sounds pretty far out. We dont have anything else to go by to prove that the body wasn't that of Gustav Weler. In case there is independent validation of Weler's survival, I stand corrected.

The Soviets had every reason to get worked up with the discovery of that body at that time. The fact that they went to great lengths to shoot the entire episode is quite understandable under the circumstances. Our hindsight now..after so much information is available to us over the decades, is not the prism through which the Russian officers saw things on the spot when the guns were still smoking.

Cheers
Sandeep

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi everyone...

The discovery of Hitler's doppelganger shot in the head ; The report on the actual event from the direct participants in the episode :

(http://www.zukunft-braucht-erinnerung.d ... n-hitlers/)

Translated from the original German to English, so slightly off the mark at times :

"...These reported from his own experience of former Colonel Andrey I. Ryžkov: "Our Koprs belonged to the 28th Army in the inventory of the 1st Ukrainian Front. We were moved from East Prussia and participated in the battle for Berlin. On the morning of May 2 we left, a group of officers and soldiers to watch Hitler's quarters. We had just arrived, as we found on a simple soldier blanket the corpse of Hitler. Under the supervision of machine gunners and officers we secured the Fund.
We carried the body on the terrace, but because it was there still dark, we took him in the courtyard of the Reich Chancellery. There we found a portrait of Hitler, which we placed on his chest. A cameraman recorded all. (...) Then the military commander of Berlin, Comrade Berzarin declared on 3 or 4 May that the corpse of Hitler was not found by us. Man held this body clearly for a doppelganger Hitler.
At that time was constant talk of doubles. I remember that in our press was a message to the effect that on the coast of Argentina from a submarine two people had been sent, a man and a woman, and it was generally accepted that there had this to Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun traded, see Natal'ja Eliseeva. Istoija vojny obošlas' bez fotografij mertvogo Gitlera (Military history came without pictures of the dead Hitler made), in: http://www.strana.ru/ 5.5.2005..."


The burnt remains of Hitler and Eva in the garden :

http://www.zukunft-braucht-erinnerung.de/die-acht-bestattungen-hitlers/

hitler.eva.jpg (15.14 KiB) Viewed 10671 times

Conspiracy theories on Hitler's death are based on part facts, part projections and partly wilful misrepresentations. Yes .. the skull fragment doesnt match. But that is easily explained...there were 2 women of different age groups buried in the same location.

Yes...Stalin indulged in double speak on Hitler's death and the discovery of his remains. But didnt he do that on so many issues? Doesnt mean that Hiler escaped because Stalin said funny things ! It was the beginning of the cold war and Stalin needed as many aces as he could stack. A living Hitler, protected by the British or the US, was live ammo to Stalin. That angle had to be milked for all it was worth at that time.

The labyrinthine cold war intrigues are responsible for all the confusion about Hitler's remains.. Thats all there is to it I guess.


Hitler's dentals

http://www.zukunft-braucht-erinnerung.de/die-acht-bestattungen-hitlers/

hitler.dentals.jpg (8.79 KiB) Viewed 10671 times

Goebbels ..semi burnt !

http://www.zukunft-braucht-erinnerung.de/die-acht-bestattungen-hitlers/

goebbels.jpg (12.45 KiB) Viewed 10671 times

Cheers
Sandeep

[FranzJ]

Despite claims made to the contrary during his interrogation, Erich Kempka later admitted that when Hitler and Eva Braun locked themselves in a room to commit suicide, he lost his nerve and ran out of the Führerbunker, returning only after Hitler and Braun were dead. By the time he returned to the Bunker, Hitler and Braun's bodies were already being carried upstairs for cremation.

"A short time after that SS-Sturmbannführer Linge (valet of the Führer) and an orderly whom I do not remember came from the private room of the Führer carrying a corpse wrapped in an ordinary field-gray blanket. Based on the previous information from SS-Obersturmbannführer Günsche, I at once supposed that it was the corpse of the Führer. One could only see the long black trousers and the black shoes which the Führer usually wore with his field-gray uniform jacket".

While he was interned for several years in two Soviet POW camps in Strasberg and Posen, the Wehrmachtsurgeon-general, Major-General Walter Schreiber, had the opportunity to speak with four persons, each of whom had been present in the Bunker until Berlin fell to the Soviets. While he was unable to draw any information on the subject of Hitler's fate out of the "arrogant" Wilhelm Mohnke.

However, in a statement for Soviet authorities dated 18 May 1945, Mohnke wrote: "I personally did not see the Führer's body and I don't know what was done to it."

-- V. K. Vinogradov et al. (eds), "Hitler's Death: Russia's Last Great Secret from the Files of the KGB", Chaucer Press, London, 2005

Hitler's pilot Hans Baur told him only that he had never seen Hitler dead. Heinz Linge and Otto Günsche were more forthcoming. Linge told him that he "did not see Hitler, but toward the end noticed two bodies wrapped in carpet being carried out of the Bunker". Linge told Schreiber that while at the time he had assumed the bodies to be those of the Hitler couple, only later had he been told that this was the case. This admission is astounding, because Linge is the one person mentioned by all eyewitnesses as having carried Hitler's body up the stairs and into the Chancellery garden. Günsche, with whom Schreiber spoke only a short time after the regime fell, proved even more informative. Like Linge, Günsche admitted that he had never seen Hitler's dead body. He added the enigmatic comment: "Those things were all done without us".

-- 'Persons Who Should Know Are Not Certain Hitler Died in Berlin Bunker', "Long Beach Press-Telegram", California, 10 January 1949

Such evidence is corroborated by General Helmuth Weidling, who told the Soviets on 4 January 1946: "After I was taken prisoner, I spoke to SS Gruppenführer Rattenhuber and SS Sturmbannführer Günsche, and both said they knew nothing about the details of Hitler's death".

On the basis of Schreiber's and Weidling's revelations, it can be regarded as certain that neither Günsche nor Linge, the two mainstays of the Hitler suicide legend, nor Mohnke nor Rattenhuber, had anything to do with Hitler's death or knew anything about it. It would seem appropriate to conclude that no one who knew anything for certain about what happened to Hitler has ever spoken about it publicly. Hitler's inner circle in Berlin knew nothing about what had happened to him, and the stories they told publicly after 1945 (in the case of Kempka) and since 1955 (in the cases of Linge and Günsche) have been lies. They were either writing themselves into history or, as seems more likely, under pressure from their captors to make statements to help buttress the Hitler suicide narrative. Indeed, it may well have been a condition of Linge's and Günsche's release from Soviet captivity in 1955 that they agreed to furnish such statements.

James Preston O'Donnell, in "The Bunker" disputed the reliability of the interrogations of witnesses in 1945, which are used as primary sources by most historian. Many witnesses admitted that they either lied or withheld information during their 1945 interviews, mainly due to pressure from their interrogators (this was especially true of those captured by the Soviets).

[FranzJ]

"The Soviets' problems began on 8 May—the day the autopsy of the putative Hitler remains was carried out—when a "bullet-torn and battered body of a man identified as Hitler" was found in the ruins of the Bunker. 1

"An American war correspondent, Joseph ("Joe") W. Grigg, Jr, proudly announced from Berlin that Hitler's body had almost certainly been found. Grigg was soon forced to retract his scoop, however. On 10 May, he reported that "[f]our bodies, blackened and charred, that seem to answer to Hitler's general appearance have been dragged out of the [Chancellery] ruins". He observed that "none has been identified as being definitely that of the Nazi Führer". Considering that within five days they had found six corpses, any one of which could have been Hitler's, Grigg's conclusion was appropriately pessimistic: "...the Russians are beginning to believe that no body that can be identified without any shadow of doubt as that of Adolf Hitler ever will be found now". 2

"In early June, the substantial scale of the hoax became apparent when it was revealed that the Bunker had been littered with bodies of numerous individuals dressed in Hitler's trousers. On 9 June, during a press conference attended by British, American, French and Russian reporters, the Soviet military commander Marshal Georgi K. Zhukov admitted that they had "found no corpses which could be Hitler's". The Soviet commandant of Berlin, Colonel-General Nikolai E. Bezarin, explained that the Russians had "...found several bodies in Hitler's Reich Chancellery with the Führer's name on their clothes... In Hitler's Chancellery we found, in fact, too many bodies with his name on the clothes. It got to be a joke. Every time I would find a pair of pants I would say, 'These are Hitler's'." Zhukov told the reporters that he now considered it a serious possibility that Hitler had escaped Berlin by air. "He could have taken off at the very last moment, for there was an airfield at his disposal," he said". 3

Endnotes

1. Globe and Mail, Toronto, 11 June 1945
2. Joe Grigg, 'Berlin Ruins Yield Bodies', Hamilton Spectator, 10 May 1945
3. Globe and Mail, 9 May 1945

-- Giordan Smith "Fabricating the Death of Hitler"

[FranzJ]

Report of Hitler in Argentina, August 1945. FBI Case File 65-53615

The FBI headquarters file on Adolf Hitler, File 65-53615, began being released by the FBI to researchers under the Freedom of Information Act on 26 April 1976, though in a redacted form.

The first document 65-53615-35, which is heavily redacted in the version on the FBI website [https://vault.fbi.gov/adolf-hitler/adol ... of-04/view] was completely opened to researchers by the FBI in 1991 and has been opened to researchers at the National Archives for over a dozen years.

[Jeremy Dixon]

Hitler would have gone nowhere without his doctors and he only flew with Baur as pilot......Baur was captured by the Soviets and therefore could not have flown Hitler out of Belrin. Its all rubbish.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hitler would have gone nowhere without his doctors and he only flew with Baur as pilot......Baur was captured by the Soviets and therefore could not have flown Hitler out of Belrin. Its all rubbish.

This is an example of how the various myths about Hitler's survival get propagated. Misquoted facts. Partially quoted witnesses. Misrepresented authors. And nonsense passing as analysis.

No one stops to think who could possibly be Hitler's companions from the real world. All were accounted for.

[FranzJ]

James P O'Donnell in his book "The Berlin Bunker" cited Speer saying that Baur had serious plans to fly Hitler out on 23, 28 and 29 April 1945. He also quoted Baur himself after the war saying "right up to the last day I could have flown the Führer anywhere in the world".

[sandeepmukherjee196]

James P O'Donnell in his book "The Berlin Bunker" cited Speer saying that Baur had serious plans to fly Hitler out on 23, 28 and 29 April 1945. He also quoted Baur himself after the war saying "right up to the last day I could have flown the Führer anywhere in the world".

So..?

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Despite claims made to the contrary during his interrogation, Erich Kempka later admitted that when Hitler and Eva Braun locked themselves in a room to commit suicide, he lost his nerve and ran out of the Führerbunker, returning only after Hitler and Braun were dead. By the time he returned to the Bunker, Hitler and Braun's bodies were already being carried upstairs for cremation.

"A short time after that SS-Sturmbannführer Linge (valet of the Führer) and an orderly whom I do not remember came from the private room of the Führer carrying a corpse wrapped in an ordinary field-gray blanket. Based on the previous information from SS-Obersturmbannführer Günsche, I at once supposed that it was the corpse of the Führer. One could only see the long black trousers and the black shoes which the Führer usually wore with his field-gray uniform jacket".

While he was interned for several years in two Soviet POW camps in Strasberg and Posen, the Wehrmachtsurgeon-general, Major-General Walter Schreiber, had the opportunity to speak with four persons, each of whom had been present in the Bunker until Berlin fell to the Soviets. While he was unable to draw any information on the subject of Hitler's fate out of the "arrogant" Wilhelm Mohnke.

However, in a statement for Soviet authorities dated 18 May 1945, Mohnke wrote: "I personally did not see the Führer's body and I don't know what was done to it."

-- V. K. Vinogradov et al. (eds), "Hitler's Death: Russia's Last Great Secret from the Files of the KGB", Chaucer Press, London, 2005

Hitler's pilot Hans Baur told him only that he had never seen Hitler dead. Heinz Linge and Otto Günsche were more forthcoming. Linge told him that he "did not see Hitler, but toward the end noticed two bodies wrapped in carpet being carried out of the Bunker". Linge told Schreiber that while at the time he had assumed the bodies to be those of the Hitler couple, only later had he been told that this was the case. This admission is astounding, because Linge is the one person mentioned by all eyewitnesses as having carried Hitler's body up the stairs and into the Chancellery garden. Günsche, with whom Schreiber spoke only a short time after the regime fell, proved even more informative. Like Linge, Günsche admitted that he had never seen Hitler's dead body. He added the enigmatic comment: "Those things were all done without us".

-- 'Persons Who Should Know Are Not Certain Hitler Died in Berlin Bunker', "Long Beach Press-Telegram", California, 10 January 1949

Such evidence is corroborated by General Helmuth Weidling, who told the Soviets on 4 January 1946: "After I was taken prisoner, I spoke to SS Gruppenführer Rattenhuber and SS Sturmbannführer Günsche, and both said they knew nothing about the details of Hitler's death".

On the basis of Schreiber's and Weidling's revelations, it can be regarded as certain that neither Günsche nor Linge, the two mainstays of the Hitler suicide legend, nor Mohnke nor Rattenhuber, had anything to do with Hitler's death or knew anything about it. It would seem appropriate to conclude that no one who knew anything for certain about what happened to Hitler has ever spoken about it publicly. Hitler's inner circle in Berlin knew nothing about what had happened to him, and the stories they told publicly after 1945 (in the case of Kempka) and since 1955 (in the cases of Linge and Günsche) have been lies. They were either writing themselves into history or, as seems more likely, under pressure from their captors to make statements to help buttress the Hitler suicide narrative. Indeed, it may well have been a condition of Linge's and Günsche's release from Soviet captivity in 1955 that they agreed to furnish such statements.

James Preston O'Donnell, in "The Bunker" disputed the reliability of the interrogations of witnesses in 1945, which are used as primary sources by most historian. Many witnesses admitted that they either lied or withheld information during their 1945 interviews, mainly due to pressure from their interrogators (this was especially true of those captured by the Soviets).

James P O'Donnell mentioned the withholding of information by witnesses, in a particular context. And the withholding of information referred not only to the Soviets but also to the western allies. He said that people simply wanted to avoid trouble at that time and say what they were expected to say.

Now the question is what were they expected to say? And by whom? The Soviets wanted to prove the following to the world and perhaps also to their own ideological conscience :

[*] Hitler may have survived and given refuge by the Capitalist..Fascist sympathising west.

[*] If Hitler had at all died then he died like a coward i.e., he developed cold feet and had to be delivered the coup de grace by an attendant ..most probably Gunsche.

The Soviets pursued both these lines diligently. They tortured Baur to make him admit that he had flown Hitler out someplace. When he very reasonably pointed out that if Hitler was safe in sunny Spain or someplace then how come his pilot (Baur himself) was in a Soviet prison minus a leg! To this the Soviet riposte was : Baur had returned to Berlin, after flying Hitler out, in order to kill a witness to this escape i.e., his copilot Georg Betz ! It is to be noted here that the version about the wounded Betz dying near the Weidendammer bridge, in the care of Kaethe Hausermann, was corroborated by Kempka who WAS NOT IN SOVIET CUSTODY !

The Soviets also tortured Gunsche and Linge. But here, the line being pursued, was different. They wanted to know who shot Hitler. In their ideological scheme of things an anti-communist ideologue..a 'Fascist Beast' HAD to be a coward and couldn't possibly shoot himself. So someone like Gunsche MUST have snatched the gun and shot him. At this time the Soviets were already giving out the story to the world that Hitler didn't shoot himself but just had poison.

Since O'Donnell is being referred to freely and partially, leading to misrepresentations, lets see what he actually has to say vis-a-vis Gunsche et al :

(Page 225- Otto Gunsche to O'Donnell in 1974)

" In retrospect, and much as I hate even to recall those long Stalinist interrogation sessions, I believe the Soviets had two things in the backs of their minds. First, the Russian suspicion that either I or someone else very close to Hitler had in fact shot him. Shot him in the sense of having given him the coup de grace with his own pistol; either they really believed that, or they wanted to believe it.
Second, the so-called carrot-and-stick method. The Russians offered me "instant freedom" if I would "confess". All I had to do was to sign a document to the effect that Hitler did not shoot himself, and I would be a free man......"

Falsification of history through misrepresentation of sources is not allowed by the forum rules I guess.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

...................................

James Preston O'Donnell, in "The Bunker" disputed the reliability of the interrogations of witnesses in 1945, which are used as primary sources by most historian. Many witnesses admitted that they either lied or withheld information during their 1945 interviews, mainly due to pressure from their interrogators (this was especially true of those captured by the Soviets).

O'Donnell on the subject of the reliability of Otto Gunsche :

Page 225-footnote - " *One point on which I agree with Soviet Intelligence. After initial skepticism, they have tended, in recent years, to accept Otto Guensche as a most accurate witness.

Otto Guensche told O'Donnell in 1974 :

" Nothing is more dangerous than to lie to the Soviets, above all in a written protocol. You will notice that even today they use my testimony wherever it contradicts such historians as Professor Trevor-Roper, but seldom when what I have said corroborates western sources. "

[sandeepmukherjee196]

James P O'Donnell on the matter of the discovery of the remains of Herr and Frau Hitler :

(page 367) -

"...In any case, the Russians were at first confused. When Klimenko returned to the Bunker the next day, Thursday, May 3, he found the body of the Hitler double on prominent display in the Reich Chancellery main hall. So, completely forgetting the matter of the darned socks, he assumed the basic problem had been solved. Poking about further, he found other bodies inside the bunker, those of General Krebs and the six Goebbels children. Then another full day passed. There is creepy black humour in his official account of the next discovery. He himself related:

Private Ivan Churakov climbed into a nearby crater that was strewn with burned paper. I noticed a bazooka in there and called out to Churakov, 'Climb out quickly or you may be blown to bits!' Churakov answered, 'Comrade Lieutenant Colonel, there are legs here!'
We started to dig and pulled from the crater the bodies of a man and a woman and two dogs. Of course, at first I didn't even think that these might the corpses of Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun, since I believed that Hitler's corpse was already in the Chancellery and only needed to be positively identified. I therefore ordered the new corpses to be wrapped in blankets and reburied. .............."