Edelweiss Pirates in popular memory

[jackconnor]

Persons who rape and murder are criminals, regardless of the regime they are living under.

The mistake Adam Carr is making is to assume that the criminality of the German Lumpenproletriat, as expressed by groups like the Edelweisspiraten, was directed at the German Government because of that government's National Socialist ideology and character.

The truth is that the criminality of the German Lumpenproletariat, like that of any Lumpenproletariat, was directed against any authority whatsoever, no matter what its nature or ideology, and indeed against society as a whole. The Edelweisspiraten would have been thugs and murderers even if Germany had been ruled by Mother Teresa.

The Edelweisspiraten were of the same ilk as the perpetrators of the recent riots in London. The fact that the social authority they were rebelling violently against was a dictatorship rather than a democracy is totally irrelevant to the reality of their criminality.

If the Edelweisspiraten were alive today, and were still part of the Lumpenproletariat, they would most likely be neo-Nazi punks, ie members of the group most opposed to society and rejected by it. They were the exact equivalent of the present-day gang of extreme-right murderers recently uncovered in Zwickau.

I am not sure how you can call the Edelweiss Pirates thugs. From what I have read they hated the Nazi's, they helped save Jewish people and fought with the Hitler Youth. Agree I am sure they had bad ones among them, we have bad kids at school that will always be bad. Some of the Edelweiss Pirates such as the 'Wurzburg Edelweiss Pirates group' were also Hitler Youth members, they did that just to cover their tracks and why they were never caught. They should have been given a medal for all the Jewish people they saved.

[michael mills]

The ones who were hanged were criminals, they had committed murders and robberies.

The rest of them were just juvenile delinquents, the same as members of youth gangs in the United State. Juvenile delinquents engage in violence and other forms of criminal behaviour not for ideological reasons, but because they are opposed to any form of authority that seeks to control their behaviour, regardless of the political complexion of that authority.

As for "saving " Jews, I suspect that might be a human myth. Juvenile delinquents and adult criminals are not known for their altruism, particularly not for risking their own lives to help others.

I think you may be labouring under romantic delusions concerning groups like the Edelweiss Pirates.

[StickShaker]

Michael Mills hasn't exactly proven they were common criminals and juvenile delinquents either. Adam's opinion is just as valid as yours. Both are conjecture, not enough info to know for sure either way.

The only credible evidence Michael provided actually backs Alan's opinion more than Mills'....

[michael mills]

Stickshaker, if you want to idealise a bunch of criminals and juvenile delinquents, some of whom had committed murders, you are free to do so.

Shake your stick as much as you like, it will not change historical reality.

[German Resistance]

If the Edelweisspiraten were alive today, and were still part of the Lumpenproletariat, they would most likely be neo-Nazi punks.

Yeah, they look like the part indeed:

[German Resistance]

As for "saving " Jews, I suspect that might be a human myth. Juvenile delinquents and adult criminals are not known for their altruism, particularly not for risking their own lives to help others.

Don't suspect, get facts instead. You are accusing others in this thread trying to change "historical reality" than here is one for you: for saving Jews during the Holocaust, the Yad Vashem has collectively honored all members of the Edelweiss Pirates as ‘Righteous Among the Nations’ in 1988. The prerequisite to receive this award is that one had to risk their lives to save the persecuted.

In 2005, the youth group was also officially recognized as anti-Nazi German resistance fighters. In 2011, the Mayor of Cologne has decorated five surviving members of the Edelweiss Pirates with the German Federal Cross of Merit. That is certainly not a decoration that they are throwing around to "a bunch of criminals and juvenile delinquents".

[Harro]

It is telling how Michael conveniently projects the alledged criminal behaviour of part of the Ehrenfeld Group on the Edelweißpiraten as a whole.

[michael mills]

The Edelweiss Pirates were gangs of juvenile delinquents rebelling against the society in which they lived. It was purely chance that the society they were rebelling against happened to be ruled by the National Socialists. The crucial factor is that the nature of the rulers was irrelevant to their rebellion; they would have rebelled regardless of who the rulers were. That is shown by the fact that even after the German surrender many of the Edwelweiss Pirates continued their anti-social activities and had to be suppressed by the Allied Occupation authorities.

Some of the Edelweiss Pirates were more criminal than others. The ones who were hanged in Koeln were definitely criminals, violent robbers and murderers, and most of them were adults.

The fact that the Edelweiss Pirates are honoured today by the German Government says nothing about their essential nature. The German Government for its political reasons will honour anyone who clashed with the authorities during the National Socialist period, regardless of the reasons for that clash.

[Urmel]

The disgusting Nazi apologia that some members here post is unbelievable.

So urteilte das Oberlandesgericht Freiburg 1952, Widerstandshandlungen mit Waffengewalt gegen die Nationalsozialisten müssten gebilligt werden, obwohl sie die Strafgesetze verletzten. Eine Regierung, die allgemein anerkannte Moralgesetze missachte und sich zur Erreichung ihrer Ziele bedenkenlos in sittlich verwerflicher Weise teilweise gar verbrecherischer Mittel bediene, zwinge ihre Gegner zum Kampf mit gleicher Waffe.

Selbst der Bundesgerichtshof befand 1962, nicht nur die höchsten Funktionäre hätten tätlich bekämpft werden dürfen wie am 20. Juli 1944, sondern auch die kleinen Parteigänger, die die Unrechtsherrschaft absicherten.

https://www.nzz.ch/article9BXVJ-1.230355

Lynching 'not completely legal'. Seriously...

[Gorque]

An emotional topic: and rightly so. For the Germans, and I being one, the general (Hollywood) insinuations of strict adherence with regime edicts despite the evidence to the contrary. Factor in societal atomization due to forced National Socialist infiltration of all extra-familial unit interactions, coupled with heightened police surveillance, as well as the state fostering of reporting on your neighbors and I can see why the Germans are trying, rightly so, to highlight those who resisted the Nationalist Socialist attempts at societal homogenization.

Michael is portraying the Edelweiss Pirates as a group of thugs. I am sure that there are some members of the Pirates that were just that. I am also sure that some members of the Pirates were true resistors that were employing criminal tactics in order to fund their resistance much like the members of the resistance in Poland and France were doing. Perhaps an introspective analysis of the situation of the time with an empathic emphasis of the perpetrators/resistors would greatly enhance each others understanding of their positions and lead to a consensus regarding the Edelweiss Pirates.

Good grief, did I just scribble the above gobbely-gook? Yowsah!

[Truckman]

Good grief, did I just scribble the above gobbely-gook? Yowsah!

You probably read some of my overblown wordage elsewhere, and got carried away in the moment...It happens... ...Ben