Most effective sniper of World War 2?

[MRBROWN1E]

The sniper from the movie Enemy at the Gates was Vasily Zaytsev and if you dont believe me then go to http://military.discovery.com/technolog ... rs-06.html

[bil]

I don't think that is disputed.However,I would hesitate to refer to a TV show for evidence.I have worked on several differant 'documentaries' for this network,and anyone is wasting time to use them as a source of referance.TV is a form of entertainment,not education.The facts will be made to fit or be left out to make the story.This particular blurb you refer to seems to have it right while actually saying nothing. ---bil

[Jan-Hendrik]

Anyone stil disputes that this movie was a pure fairy tale?

German snipers and sharpshooters

Jan-Hendrik

[teg]

http://www.wio.ru/galgrnd/sniper/sniperru.htm - and what about this link. According to this information, Soviet sniper Mikail Surkov was the best in WWII with 702 kills.

[bf109 emil]

If this thread is measured in quantity then both Soviet and Finnish riflemen can most likely claim title, but if it was quality, then some mention has to be given to a sniper being able to scale a palm tree, hold himself steady for a length of time all the while waiting for an expecting Marine to come within his sights...might not have gained a numerous amount of kills, but his patience and dedication are not left for a want of lacking to score a kill

[Vyacheslav]

The best ww2 sniper is in fact Russia's Mikhail Illich Surkov-702 confirmed kills.

Regarding the duel between Vassili Zaitsev and Koenig"- Ive done alot of research on this and in my opinion the duel did actually take place and theres certainly more evidence to show Koenig existed than the evidence there is to show he didnt exist.
The only evidence people show that Koenig didnt exist is that his name does not show up on any records, After researching online about this I believe ive found an explanation"- Almost all the Wehrmacht personnel records that survived the war are now stored in the archives of the Deutsche Dienst (WAST) in Berlin, a government agency that traces its origins back to the wartime Wehrmachtauskunftstelle. you can't just walk in there and rummage through their files. In fact, under German law, you can gain access to information about a particular individual only with the individual's consent if the individual is still alive or with the consent of the individual's immediate relatives if the individual is deceased. This helps explain why no one knew that Nobel laureate Guenther Grass had served in the Waffen-SS until he revealed it himself about a year ago.As you see no historian could have been granted access to the files in the (WAST) and if any documents of Koenig exist thats where they would be.

There is however a amount of evidence to prove Koenig was real,in the Moscow armed forces museum there is the scope from Koenigs sniper rifle "Zaitsevs most prized trophy from the war".
Post war in Berlin, Vassili Zaitsev was at a military meeting,while waiting in the main hall a woman said to Zaitsev"im the daughter of Major Koenig"! Zaitsevs wife witnessed this and said Zaitsevs face turned gray ,Soviet officers quickly evacuated Zaitsev to avoid a threat.
As well 2 men witnessed this sniper duel take place-Commisar Danilov and Vassilis partner Nikolay Kulikov.

In this video Zaitsev confirms the duel,Zaitsevs word to me is more proof than what any record says"- After all Zaitsev was there
Best regards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=692xwcADYdw

[LWD]

The best ww2 sniper is in fact Russia's Mikhail Illich Surkov-702 confirmed kills.
...

Imbedded in that sentence are several assumptions that may or may not be warranted. It also doesn't necessarily address the question asked in the title of this thread.

[Vyacheslav]

Going by number of confirmed kills the current records show Mikhail Surkov to be at the top of the list,That does not really make him the best I correct myself-its all a matter of opinion.

[Mikko H.]

If König/Thorvald was a real person, why isn't there a shred of German documentation of his existence? I don't mean just personnel records, but also mentions in diaries, propaganda stories etc, of which there should be plenty, especially if he was such a hotshot (pardon the pun) sniper?

To claim that Germans censored their records to erase the shame of his death doesn't hold water. And please remember that anecdote is not evidence.

[Vyacheslav]

If König/Thorvald was a real person, why isn't there a shred of German documentation of his existence? I don't mean just personnel records, but also mentions in diaries, propaganda stories etc, of which there should be plenty, especially if he was such a hotshot (pardon the pun) sniper?

To claim that Germans censored their records to erase the shame of his death doesn't hold water. And please remember that anecdote is not evidence.

There is mention of Koenig in diarys,Marshall of the Soviet Union Vassili Chuikovs hold the most credability. Also theres a documentary "Hitlers war the eastern front" where a German veteran of Stalingrad tells about how a top German sniper was flown in to take out the top Soviet snipers, Eventually this top German sniper was killed by a Soviet sniper told the German vet.

Sounds like it could be Koenig

[Mikko H.]

When was Chuikov's diary published? Antony Beevor states in his Stalingrad, p. 204, that "It is worth noting that there is absolutely no mention of it [the alleged duel] in any of the reports to [the head of the political department of the Red Army Aleksandr] Shcherbakov, even though almost every aspect of 'sniperism' was reported with relish." As for the German veteran's statement, it appears to be just an anecdote which value is impossible to assess without knowing the context. For all we know his memory might have been 'contaminated' during the intervening years.

All this is very feeble when compared to the thundering silence of German records. The story of this sniper duel has been known for decades. Why hasn't anything concrete at all about this König/Thorvald emerged? If he really was one of the top snipers of the Third Reich, there must exist a wealth of material about the man -- look how obsessively the lives and deeds of German tank, fighter, and -- yes -- sniper aces are chronicled on this very forum.

[Vyacheslav]

When was Chuikov's diary published? Antony Beevor states in his Stalingrad, p. 204, that "It is worth noting that there is absolutely no mention of it [the alleged duel] in any of the reports to [the head of the political department of the Red Army Aleksandr] Shcherbakov, even though almost every aspect of 'sniperism' was reported with relish." As for the German veteran's statement, it appears to be just an anecdote which value is impossible to assess without knowing the context. For all we know his memory might have been 'contaminated' during the intervening years.

All this is very feeble when compared to the thundering silence of German records. The story of this sniper duel has been known for decades. Why hasn't anything concrete at all about this König/Thorvald emerged? If he really was one of the top snipers of the Third Reich, there must exist a wealth of material about the man -- look how obsessively the lives and deeds of German tank, fighter, and -- yes -- sniper aces are chronicled on this very forum.

Chuikovs diarys were published in 1975.
Antony Beever stated in an interview that he looked in the Podolsk archives and found nothing,well the reason is because Podolsk held the female sniper school-they wouldnt have such archives. From what I read Antony Beever is not a seasoned ww2 historian,he even said he practically begged his publisher to let him write something other than a book on Stalingrad.

This German veteran had a sharp memory it seemed,he told his storys in great detail-did he say this Germans name was Koenig? No but it proves alot to one thing-The Germans were indeed flying their best snipers in,Koenig just may have been one of them.

(quoat)"If he really was one of the top snipers of the Third Reich, there must exist a wealth of material about the man". Not necisarily,Sergeant sniper Galifan Abzalov of the Red Army was one of the best Soviet snipers in Stalingrad with over 200 kills,1 Stalingrad citezin said Galifans name was famous throughout the city,the whole 62nd army knew his name. Now theres no info on Abzalov,ive checked many archives and came up with nothing,the only mention of Abzalov is in V.Zaitsevs memoirs along with one photo.

[Mikko H.]

This German veteran had a sharp memory it seemed,he told his storys in great detail-did he say this Germans name was Koenig? No but it proves alot to one thing-The Germans were indeed flying their best snipers in,Koenig just may have been one of them.

What we need to know is how long after the even the story was recorded. If in, say, 1945, then we need to take his claim seriously. If in 2005, the we may be more skeptical. But one man's memory doesn't amount to much when there's no corroborating documentation, as students of history should be very well aware.

For me, the interesting question is: when was this duel first mentioned in document and/or in print?

Not necisarily,Sergeant sniper Galifan Abzalov of the Red Army was one of the best Soviet snipers in Stalingrad with over 200 kills,1 Stalingrad citezin said Galifans name was famous throughout the city,the whole 62nd army knew his name. Now theres no info on Abzalov,ive checked many archives and came up with nothing,the only mention of Abzalov is in V.Zaitsevs memoirs along with one photo.

König/Thorvald was supposed to be one of Germany's foremost snipers and teacher at a sniper school. An officer with the rank of major or colonel. If you have a look at the biographical sections of this forum, you'll soon notice how much information there's available about even rather unremarkable German officers, not to speak of men who are famous for one thing or another. Yet no man has emerged who fits the description of the German sniper who allegedly dueled with Zaitsev. People have been looking, and failed.

[Mikko H.]

BTW, I think it's possible that some sort of sniper duel did take place in Stalingrad. But if there indeed was such duel, it's far more probable that the German counterpart was an 'ordinary' sharpshooter from an unit already there; AFAIK there's no hard evidence that the he was a sniper ace specially flown in to take Zaitsev down. I think that part at least was added as the tale grew in telling or was embellished for propaganda purposes.

[Vyacheslav]

Vassili confirmed many times that the documents clearly showed this Germans name as Koenig and that he was the head of Berlins sniper school. Zaitsev was not a liar but an honest man in my opinion-he never lied about his kill count I know for certain.
And it was a German captive that told the captain Batyuk that Koenig was sent to kill "Vassili Zaitsev"
Theres also the woman in Berlin that says she is Koenigs daughter.